Battles System / Plunder Revision

[Shadowood]

2)The stronger a fleet becomes, the riskier it becomes to have it. The risk, I could say, in simplistic language, is exponential while it should have been at most linear.

CJ, I forgot to add a thought on this point as it is not 100% accurate in the current state of the game. Recently I was working with a newer member of Pirates Glory as they asked for help in "how to steal a ship". I had this player do several things to learn the different ways to steal a targets ship. They had a target in mind that has a fleet made up of (4) Ship of the Line and (1) Sloop as a tail. They cast a Pouch of Gold on this player to reveal they had a purse of about $6.5 Million. Now to keep this short, this is what was worked out to steal this fleet:

38 Booty's
9 Levi's
4 Kraken
1 Disfavor
10 Ambush
Total Rough Credits at that time was 540 for the cards listed. Also almost 400 Turns to do this.

540 Credits worth of voodoo to steal this 1 fleet.

Now, 4 SOTL is a SOLID fleet. One of the strongest on the water today. Of course ATT's are now the deciding factor of if this would pay off or not. If the 4 SOTL in this fleet are average ships of 39-43 ATT, they will sell on the market for 50 or less credits. This is only 200 credits at most!!

Why would a pirate risk spending 540 credits for a payoff of only 200 credits in base level Ship of the Lines. They simply won't. This is why you see players sailing these fleets with no worry to get stolen. Now, there are a few beast ships out there that are high ATT (60's). If you manage to get a 60 ATT Ship of the Line you could sell it for quite a bit more. And even more if it has a desired Trait. But without knowing for sure its a 60, you just don't go for it.

The quoted statement above is false under the current system and outrageous credit market.

I am working on a suggestion as I don't want to just disagree with your post. There is a lot of good stuff in here, but it is mixed with some not so good. Thank you for continuing to want to improve the game for us players.

[not a pirate]

If the game does move in this direction though, it wouldn't be completely out of mind to have some aspects of this very, very rough suggestion be implemented for certain demographics of players.

Perhaps merchants may enjoy increased protections of their fleets at a lowered plunder cap- maybe defined by # of ships? Assume a base plunder cap of 250k for everybody. Maybe every 50-75 ships this plunder cap decreases by xx,000 gold? In return, some iteration of the emergency kits may be implemented- maybe merchants will receive a small discount on emergency kits as an added bonus of a nation rank? Maybe a law that subsidizes emergency kits by a certain amount set by the nation? This would incentivize a focus on trading and not being able to reap the same rewards of plunder that a pirate is able to obtain. The trade-off for more ships (therefore, more profit in theory) would be less income from other sources. The trade-off for having your emergency kits possibly discounted would be a lower plunder cap based on your size.

I am of the feeling on this right now that this is actually a healthy idea- it doesn't necessarily prevent double dipping into many playstyles, but makes you as the player choose which you would like the reap more benefits from at the cost of others. Privateers can balance this to find a healthy medium, while pirates and merchants are at either side of the spectrum. Speaking of pirates...

On the flip side, pirates may enjoy a much higher cap- or perhaps no cap at all as they forfeit all bonuses given through nations such as tax income, hostility mechanics with diplomacy, stipends, plantation access in certain cases, etc. This would obviously required a weighing of potential reward with potential risk. One must pay more than the victim for their emergency kits- will you be able to plunder enough to protect your fleets with emergency kits that are more expensive than theirs? Is their treasury + the % of emergency kit value enough to allow you make more than you risk losing? Maybe as an added passive bonus for pirates, they get something "opposite" of what merchants may get mentioned above. A slightly higher % of plunder gold from the victim's hand- not a lot compared to the likes of Piracy tech, but enough to make a difference in victory--- or, if pirates don't receive an increase, then merchants could be penalized slightly? A higher % of emergency kit value looted compared to a merchant plundering?

I believe that parts of the original discussion had merit- but other parts vastly destroyed any semblance of a good idea for the whole picture. Some general things I think should be discussed more in-depth:

Gold coins plundered shouldn't be based on the last-positioned ship-- I like this idea. Perhaps make it a statistic of the overall average gold cost of the ships? In regards to higher levels of all the ships in the fleet, especially upper end ships, if I have a fleet good enough to beat said fleet, I should be able to reap more rewards in the form of gold, especially if taking the ships would be harder.

Ships not losing a level when sunk in battle-- I don't like this idea. The more ships you have should penalize you for playing more aggressively as it does now- why should someone be able to run 500 ships and NOT lose levels when they are hit back?

Leviathans not being able to sink ships at level 1- I am... undecided on this. I think that we may need a card that addresses emergency kits- perhaps a swarm of worms type thing that damages the kits? A rare card that has some effect on the kits would be a nice addition in counterplay to the stacking of said kits.

Players purse only showing on plunder screen when 1M or less- I don't like this idea. It's a step back in terms of the gameplay I believe. Ways to work around it are numerous, and there's not really a need for this to be changed at all.

Fleets not being able to be attacked by the same fleet more than once in 10 hours- This idea is completely and utterly disgusting, with all due respect CJ. Not a shot at you but rather the idea of that being a game mechanic. Not only would the ships be fortified with 12 Emergency Kits-- their fleet would be immune to the same fleet attacking it more than twice on a perfect day? No, just... no.

[Captain Jack]

Let me give you what's the full purpose of this design:
-Bigger fleets around. These will dictate play. You should keep in mind that a lvl 20 SoL can take out 5 MoWs level 10. I have not tested this but that's the whereabouts.
-Ambush card probably messes up the design, we may end up changing the card rather than implementing a lot of safe mechanism.
-Why ambush messes up the design? Because I do not want X player to fear to pull out his ships because someone will spam ambushes and take them.

Now, let me elaborate the above, which is what I want to get rid of, but let me make it a quote first:

Good ships must sail

This is not happening right now. And it is not happening for the bad reasons.

It is a fairly deep and long way to explain exactly what I want. The purpose here is to modernize gameplay to current needs. We have moved away from the total annihilation gameplay. During this shift, we have noticed that the game works better and has more strategy when total disaster is controlled.

Ok, enough with sentimental description of the issue, I will post afresh in a more structured way. You get to read my first reactions this time.

[Captain Jack]

Here are the objectives that this design wants to achieve (we are still not there):

• No one can steal my full strength ships when I am sleeping
If you are awake and online, no one can. So, why this should happen when you sleep? You call this surprise? I call this a gameplay element that I do not want in PG.


• Plundering ships from an active player should be possible.
So, what you have now? You can only plunder ships from inactive players or players sleeping or newbies. Well, time for a change. If you want to steal a ship, this should be doable. Doable but strategic.


• Strong ships should be sailing, not hiding
Again, no one wants to really risk their ships. They prefer to keep then in Marina and I cannot wrong them anymore. You have little to earn by pulling a much bigger ship out. Especially when your incomes are not tied to fleet activity.


• Strong fleets will get upgraded roles in Port related combat
We do want stronger fleets to clash. For example, if SHM is using a very strong fleet to protect Aiora, you will need to get that fleet down before attacking Aiora. How is this supposed to happen right now?


• Kits idea and desertion of level system is a requirement for stronger fleets
You cannot continue with current system beyond level 10. No one will spend coin on a ship that can lost this value so easily later.

About pirates, I will answer separately.
There are many more points, but I will keep it this big, not bigger. Please reply with arguments on points and if you can, suggest solutions/more.

[Captain Jack]

Regarding Pirates, there are many twisted stories that are populated at these forums and beyond. Pirates are not that hard to play as these stories claim. In fact, they are the best way to start a fresh player, if you know how to play.

You get some really nasty cards to use and you can do all the damage you want with one fleet. Hostile Natives, a good fleet and go hunting. You do not even need Fugitive of Justice cards but you can always complement your arsenal with those.

And yes, some players have teamed up and protect each other. This makes it harder but these are the results of teamwork. Pirates can still team up. I cannot compare 1 pirate to 20 traders and create the game in a way that the pirate still wins. That's nuts. But this is a common argument I hear.

I have grew tired reading drama stories about Pirate starvation. Even if these stories were true, let's go with this version to appease the opposition of my own thinking, no one ever said it would be easy. The game itself is named Pirates Glory. Not Pirates piece of cake. If you cannot be a pirate, don't be. After all, there cannot be too many pirates; the game balance cannot sustain too many pirates. The more pirates, the more traders drama.

For plundering ships myth, I will continue below.

[Captain Jack]

So, another constant myth we have around, is the ships plunder.

Once upon a time, it was easy to plunder all the ships of the opponent. This is no longer doable. Why? Because now you have treasure holes, you have bank accounts. You have generosity. You have buried treasure. You have notifications. You have guildmates watching over your back.

Losing all your ships was easy to happen back in the day, like I said. Even the best could lose all. For example, If I recall correctly, Skyhawk, a PG legend should have experienced this.

BUT, if I remember well, ships back then used to cost a fraction of what they cost now. Like, 500k for a level 10 SoL. Then ships got more expensive. A SoL would now cost 17M. So, this could explain why players back then wanted the features above. The features above made it hard for ships to plunder, not the current plunder engine. The current plunder engine has not changed for ages, since start in fact. For all the wrong reasons every time.

Continuing on the ships plunder case, we need to see what kind of ships are usually plundered. Cutters, Howker and at best, you get to see some big merchant ships like LMMs. Of course, we have the pirate attacks , loaded with heavy voodoo , that target war fleets. Such tactics can pay off a whole war fleet which consists of 4 SoLs at best. If you are lucky, you could find 1 SoL 60 there, for a total gain of around of 300 + 300 = 600 credits. 600 credits at some time will barely cover the attack costs. But... what I am saying here? Shadowood already covered the same topic above.

So, SURELY SHIPS PLUNDER is now working well now. So, why do you actually care for ANY changes? The thing is broken! Any change might be better. You don't need to have an opinion. If you are uncertain, you can still avoid commenting a part of the feature.

Last but not least, I want a final word here. I DO WANT SHIP PLUNDERING. I want many ship plunders. Ship plunders of valuable ships. But I want ship plunders to be strategic and fair. Or else you end up in ships being sold to the market (this happened before Private Marina) or in Private Marina.

I want people to plunder a ship in order to USE it. Not sell it, not hide it. USE it.

[Captain Jack]

A final word and I stop here, I realize this is a very big issue for most. It alters all the game strategies. If need be, we will not use the revised system on the current server. Although this would be a pity as I know it would mean more.

I have been fairly to the point to most challenges so far. I do think that the next big thing we need here is to lift the levels on the ships. This is the main objective of this suggestion. This has to be facilitated somehow. You are reading the necessities for this big next step.

Yet again, I might be wrong and we may need a way to make an indestructible ship that every player can have but magically one will have. How? I do not know. You do?

[Dmanwuzhere]

A final word and I stop here, I realize this is a very big issue for most. It alters all the game strategies. If need be, we will not use the revised system on the current server. Although this would be a pity as I know it would mean more.

I have been fairly to the point to most challenges so far. I do think that the next big thing we need here is to lift the levels on the ships. This is the main objective of this suggestion. This has to be facilitated somehow. You are reading the necessities for this big next step.

Yet again, I might be wrong and we may need a way to make an indestructible ship that every player can have but magically one will have. How? I do not know. You do?

whats the point in a bigger ship when suddenly the theft of ships becomes close to impossible
a fighting fleet lives to plunder or skirmish not fire its cannons twice a day at a fleet it would like to steal
why use ffjs when if they run for half a day you have to utilize 20 fleets in the same port to make a profit
its nonsensical to me man

lets run a trade equivalent
traders fleets can only buy from each port twice a day
but the support voodoo for port sales is doubled
immigrants have to go through a venting process so you have a 2 day wait before you can use any you ship in
of course they must remain on the fleet that brought them until they get their green card
all party trades have a 95 percent chance of failure
2 percent normal party trade and 3 percent double the normal pay



i understand balance but i havent seen it in the past and do not see it in this system

[Shadowood]

CJ, I look forward to seeing what you have in store for us. Thank you for the clarifying posts. It does help in some regards.

Again, I can only speak for myself and what I like about Pirates Glory. There has to be a fun, engaging, strategic way to the battle structure. I get the most fun out of this game when I am stealing a big fleet (yes, mainly Man of War!). So much fun that my adrenaline has kicked in and I literally shake a bit after I steal such a ship/fleet. Why do I get this rush? Because pulling off this feat is difficult... even when the other player is offline. One has to plan, calculate risk, prepare for the unforeseen, accept loss if the unforeseen happens, execute the raid perfectly and then bask in the glory if/when you do capture your prize! For anyone that has stolen a Man of War or Multiple, I am assuming you know what I mean regarding this.

I 100% agree that we need a way to get BIG SHIPS SAILING. This has been a topic of discussion for sometime. I also semi-agree with the statement that a player should not get completely taken to the cleaners while asleep. But there should always be some risk while away (sleeping or not). I am sure a lot of Real Life pirate raids happened at night down on the docks. We need to keep some element of this. Some element of surprise.

Again, I look forward to a new battle system. I will rethink a few suggestions I have.

One question for you for now - Does Flagship come into play at all with this? Is Flagship still coming or is it a dead topic? Thank you

[Captain Jack]

Flagship is not affected. If need be, it will be revised with this system. Probably Flagship will come before this. I will post about next development once trade routes are released.

I know the adrenaline you speak of. Indeed that's one major point to consider. I don't want us to lose that.

At worst case scenario, we can start small by replacing levels with kits per ship. And keep all functionalities for sinking/plundering as it is now, by targeting kits instead. That would be less risky but too linear.

This is supposed to be a long discussion anyway, I am not expecting anyone to agree. I am expecting arguments and disagreements till we reach an acceptable starting point.