Fishing Ship - Dogger (Medium)

[DezNutz]

The costs are minimal IF you restrict it to a single level build. I have prposed a 10 level ship with great benefits to the owner if they do level up. At level 10 the costs are no more minimal than a lvl10 TG or LMM... factor in the GB component and its not minimal in any sense.

I also dont like the 100% sink chance proposed alongside the single level craft. Makes it somewhat one-use only... get hit, say goodbye. That wont encourage take-up either.

I agree, and so stated in my original draft, that traits are not fully relevant to this craft. That said not all traits are relevant to all current ship types either. Still, extra cargo, extra level apply : as the ship is not actually required to be armed with cannon then levi assault and fire assault apply. Can be argued it would rarely engage but same applies to sloops, howkers and cutters so shall we scrap traits for them also?

Every Trait applies to Howkers, Cutters, and Sloops. They have cannons to put up a defense. Are they effective against certain ships, no they aren't, but they still have the ability to use those traits.

It's a fishing ship, it engaging in a battle should result in either a level loss or being sunk. I've suggested a 5 Lvl alternative that keeps the ship as originally designed with each level providing a portion of the bonus, instead of it being done as just a lvl 1 ship.

[Sir Henry Morgan]

I see value in all points - the fishing strategy can generate alot of swag quietly and un-noticed for some time; that's the primary benefit- feature. Unless voodoo is cast, no one is going to detect the fishing fleets unless they appear in the top 10 lists of ships, etc.

With the current low-end of 800 ships, a bloke could run 200 to 700 or so doggers and no one know they are present until voodoo is cast.

That said, these fleets can generate substantial swag before detected. Once detected it will be a massacre, so the ability to upgrade is prudent - why mess with fishing otherwise?

I believe an automatic sink with 10 levels is not much to ask, especially if ships are also available on the market.

If ships only level up to five, and not available on the market, I believe normal Plunder sink/level loss rates would suffice.

I tend to gravitate to a level 10 ship, as it will require more investment in the fishing strategy.

[DezNutz]

I see value in all points - the fishing strategy can generate alot of swag quietly and un-noticed for some time; that's the primary benefit- feature. Unless voodoo is cast, no one is going to detect the fishing fleets unless they appear in the top 10 lists of ships, etc.

With the current low-end of 800 ships, a bloke could run 200 to 700 or so doggers and no one know they are present until voodoo is cast.

That said, these fleets can generate substantial swag before detected. Once detected it will be a massacre, so the ability to upgrade is prudent - why mess with fishing otherwise?

I believe an automatic sink with 10 levels is not much to ask, especially if ships are also available on the market.

If ships only level up to five, and not available on the market, I believe normal Plunder sink/level loss rates would suffice.

I tend to gravitate to a level 10 ship, as it will require more investment in the fishing strategy.

I can get with normal sink/level loss. The reason I prefer the 100% chance on sink/level loss, is that they are all but invisible without voodoo. Fishing with highly profitable ships that are all but invisible should come with a substantial risk. That risk is the sink/level loss chance.


The reason I prefer 5 levels over 10 is that I would prefer that Lvl 1 be the baseline dogger that solely fishes using the fishing formula, it receives no fishing bonus. The fishing rate of a dogger without any bonus using 100 cargo, 15 crew, and 0 cannons is only 23 cargo per hour. To get to the rate of 43 per hour, the dogger is equipped with a +20 bonus to the base rate. There are 4 level between level 1 & 5 and 9 levels between level 1 & 10. 9 doesn't divide evenly into 20. Mathematics dictates. No reason to create complex math or new fishing formulas. Simplicity is the way to go.

[Sir Henry Morgan]

I see your point, mate - would you consider that leveling up from Level 1 to level 2 gets no fishing bonus - it would be done simply as a defensive upgrade against sinking...take the remaining levels 3-10 (8 levels) to figure fishing bonuses...

...or something to that effect.

[DezNutz]

For the most part I agree with SHM and Danik. I really would like to get this moved forward. I think we have a hold up on only a couple of points, but I think we can come to a cohesive solution. Based on what we discussed I think this is where we stand and presents the best foot forward.

Points Agreed Upon:

1) Dogger will replace all current fishing.
- Any current fishing fleets will function until the route is stopped.
- New routes will require doggers.

2) Doggers cannot travel between ports.
- Doggers can only fleet with other Doggers.
- Doggers can only fish at the port they are constructed/stolen/salvaged/placed on market from.

3) Doggers are a multi-level ship. (# of levels is still up for debate)
- Will require GoldBars to construct.
- Will require GoldBars for leveling.
- Each level increases rate of fishing.

4) No Attribute Allocation
- Ship has no attributes or attribute allocation

Points with Alternate Ideas:

1) Ship Sink/Level Loss Chance From Plunder
- Minimum sink chance/level loss of at least 25%, 50% preferred.
- Normal Sink/Level Loss Chance applies if the chance is greater than the minimum.
- Reason: As the ship can be leveled, an automatic sink/level loss chance of 100% could not be worth the risk depending on the number of levels the dogger can have; however, fishing vessels are somewhat invisible and are completely defenseless, so there should never be a sink/level loss chance of 0%.

Points Pending Further Discussion:

1) Ship Traits
- See no reason for Doggers to have traits.
- The only applicable traits would be Extra Cargo and Extra Level.
- Dogger has no defensive or offensive capabilities, all other traits would be moot.

2) Ship Stats and Fishing Rates
- Here are the options and rates (Image posted below info)
- First set of dogger data uses the existing fishing formula with a a max of 5 levels. Level 1 is the base ship as suggested in the first post by Captain Jack with no bonus applied, each additional level provides a +5 bonus to reach the full suggested rate.
- Second set of data is based on Danik's suggestion. Requires a change to the fishing formula as fishing is always 2 hours to fill per his suggestion. Each level adds 5 cargo space.
- Third set of dogger data is a compromise for levels. It uses the existing fishing formula with a max of 10 levels. Level 1 is the base ship as suggested in the first post by Captain Jack with no bonus applied, each additional level provides a +2 bonus to the fishing rate. Max fishing rate is 41 per hour instead of 43.



3) Net Damage.
- Needs discussion.
- Like the general idea, but unsure how the mechanics of slowing the fleet down would work.

[Most Lee Harmless]

Damage would cause an equivalent percentage addition to the base fishing period. Example : My fleet leaves port with 10% damage thus : Base period = 120minutes plus 10% (12mins) fleets returns after 132minutes. The catch remains the same but the journey takes longer. On return to port another 1% damage is incurred : if unrepaired the next trip is plus 11% so 120 + 13.2 = 133.2mins. Each unrepaired trip means longer fill time and thus fewer trips per day. Repairs can be manual or use existing RFA card encouraging more brigs at sea.
Damage can also be added to fleets via cards such as SoW. The fleets may be 'invisible' but are not invulnerable with damage having immediate financial impacts.

The mechanics of slowing the fleet are not without precedent. After all its how Control the Skies voodoo functions... as well as changing crew numbers etc.

[Hawk]

Points with Alternate Ideas:

1) Ship Sink/Level Loss Chance From Plunder
- Minimum sink chance/level loss of at least 25%, 50% preferred.
- Normal Sink/Level Loss Chance applies if the chance is greater than the minimum.
- Reason: As the ship can be leveled, an automatic sink/level loss chance of 100% could not be worth the risk depending on the number of levels the dogger can have; however, fishing vessels are somewhat invisible and are completely defenseless, so there should never be a sink/level loss chance of 0%.

It would depend on the max level the ship could have. No levels, 5 levels, or 10 levels.
Personally I don't think it matters, as long as the sink chance, fishing rate, and leveling costs are appropriately scaled to the maximum levels allowed.

Points Pending Further Discussion:

1) Ship Traits
- See no reason for Doggers to have traits.
- The only applicable traits would be Extra Cargo and Extra Level.
- Dogger has no defensive or offensive capabilities, all other traits would be moot.

The trait could just be "Fishing vessel" which serves as a placeholder and replacement for other abilities.

3) Net Damage.
- Needs discussion.
- Like the general idea, but unsure how the mechanics of slowing the fleet down would work.

Like Danik suggested, just a lower rate of fishing. If it was tied to damage then it maybe like a x2 longer fishing time at 99% damage. Damage accruing at sea over time, or upon return to port, sounds good to me as well.

[Shadowood]

+1 to adding the Dogger.

Based on current fishing rates, I like the 3rd option that DezNuts has calculated for us.

I would like to know thoughts on how much each level of the Doggar would cost to upgrade in Gold Bars. They are set up for a pretty decent return on investment if approved so I think the cost should be fairly expensive.

[DezNutz]

+1 to adding the Dogger.

Based on current fishing rates, I like the 3rd option that DezNuts has calculated for us.

I would like to know thoughts on how much each level of the Doggar would cost to upgrade in Gold Bars. They are set up for a pretty decent return on investment if approved so I think the cost should be fairly expensive.

Just a thought.

I think a variation of the standard upgrade formula would be in order to determine costs.

Standard Level Upgrade Cost = (Current Ship Level * Base Ship Cost) / 2

Dogger Level Upgrade Cost = (Current Ship Level * Base GB Amount) / 2

I think that a Base GB Amount of 50 Gold Bars is sufficient.

Level 2 Dogger Upgrade Cost = 25 Gold Bars
Level 3 = 50
Level 4 = 75
Level 5 = 100
...
Level 10 = 225

Total Gold Bars = 1125

1125 Gold Bars is roughly 2.6M gc

So a fleet of 5 Doggers would cost about ~12.5M gc.

If a fleet of 5 Doggers brings in 50k per day, it will take 250 days to have a return on investment.

[Shadowood]

+1 to adding the Dogger.

Based on current fishing rates, I like the 3rd option that DezNuts has calculated for us.

I would like to know thoughts on how much each level of the Doggar would cost to upgrade in Gold Bars. They are set up for a pretty decent return on investment if approved so I think the cost should be fairly expensive.

Just a thought.

I think a variation of the standard upgrade formula would be in order to determine costs.

Standard Level Upgrade Cost = (Current Ship Level * Base Ship Cost) / 2

Dogger Level Upgrade Cost = (Current Ship Level * Base GB Amount) / 2

I think that a Base GB Amount of 50 Gold Bars is sufficient.

Level 2 Dogger Upgrade Cost = 25 Gold Bars
Level 3 = 50
Level 4 = 75
Level 5 = 100
...
Level 10 = 225

Total Gold Bars = 1125

1125 Gold Bars is roughly 2.6M gc

So a fleet of 5 Doggers would cost about ~12.5M gc.

If a fleet of 5 Doggers brings in 50k per day, it will take 250 days to have a return on investment.

+1 Nice work Dez!