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[Admiral Nelson]

Maha, not that I am saying your post is wrong but I find loosing ships at the top of hour to be irrelevant...

This is not a brag post but SSTG was and still is a fully established guild - They lost ships at the top of the hour, so really no guild is safe, no?

[Grimrock Litless]

the demise of [TOR] from a outsiders viewpoint.

weeks before Shadowood stated his intention to leave that guild i already noted cracks in [TOR]. checking up on events i noticed that [TOR] players were losing ships on the hour and thought why this could happen?

my conclusion was that [TOR] was failing due to her succes. it had grown so much that the cohesie unglued. Probably small bands of friendship within that guild were forming at the cost of other members; it is too difficult to interact with all.

at that point i decided to back of on recruiting new members for [MERC] because i recognized the symptoms in our guild as well.

imo it is natural and not necessary a bad thing. i remember from my high school economics classes that a manager can manage up to 12 men/women. beyond that extra measurements and more managers are needed.

i fully approve of training guilds, but they tend to grow and overgrow. it's the place where friendships are formed, so why leave? to those guilds who are recognizing a bit of what i wrote, discuss what your max manageable size is. and if you want to continue as a training guild (which i hope) encourage small bands within your guild to form a new guild together.

We didn't have good loyal members, so people just keep quitting. When one quits, the others find why he quits, he quits too, so, domino effect. Avery saw the opportunity and broke the guild.

[Maha]

Maha, not that I am saying your post is wrong but I find loosing ships at the top of hour to be irrelevant...

This is not a brag post but SSTG was and still is a fully established guild - They lost ships at the top of the hour, so really no guild is safe, no?

the loosing of ships over a prolonged time was the red flag that caught my attention. maybe i am naive but when the cost of replacing multiple trade fleets exceed the cost of voodoo removal or the gc upkeep through generosities than i wonder why the guild did not protect her members.

as an outsider i don't really know what went on, but it triggered my curiosity.

i fully agree that no ships are truly safe. and rightly so. a bit of anxiety/unease spices up the game. the idea that you outsmart others with your gameplay (using howker tails, sol's in tradefleets, fully armed lmm's, counter voodoo or whatever we do) makes us feel good. But no defense ever stood up to the fully motivated aggressor.
i read in a Tom Clancy novel a relevant quote: when you can see it, you can hit it, when you can hit it you can destroy it".

the most dangerous aggressors are those who are not lead by profit but by revenge or slighted ego. they're willing to harm and destroy at great personal cost. they're like the suicidal shooters in shopping malls or high schools.

imo a functioning guild is the opposite; the will to sacrifice resources and safety to guild members builds small communities. in RL the USA has done this twice towards Europe in the last century. but i fear that both the USA as Europe is moving away from this. "what's in for me?" seems to dominate over "what's good for us?"

in your Chronicles pirate Robers choose personal interest over the guild's one. i think that that was due to the size of the guild. it had grown beyond a manageable 'band of brothers'. Pirate Roberts justified his decision with "He did have Serenity's at the time but thought instead of helping, he would leave them to it to prove there "worthy" to the guild". What i read here between the lines (huge chance of being wrong here) is that 'the need to prove' came from not really knowing those guild members, they did not really belong to that small band of brothers.

The regret of pirate Roberts decision i sense a bit in Meliva's reaction as well; 'what if...'
the question really is what was left to save? did the sense of community, the sense to belong still exist in [TOR]?

[Donald Trump]

From and outsider with insider view.


Bad leadership is as well credited.

[Maha]

From and outsider with insider view.


Bad leadership is as well credited.

you made me curious.

what is needed for good guild leadership and what are your reason behind your 'bad leadership' opinion?

[Donald Trump]

From and outsider with insider view.


Bad leadership is as well credited.

you made me curious.

what is needed for good guild leadership and what are your reason behind your 'bad leadership' opinion?

I just take from what others have told me.

If this is an opinion about good leadership. I think one that respects the individuality of its members and allows freedom to all. Does not hold back from providing answers when asked, and does not apply red tape to decisions is fair enough.

[Maha]

If this is an opinion about good leadership. I think one that respects the individuality of its members and allows freedom to all. Does not hold back from providing answers when asked, and does not apply red tape to decisions is fair enough.

I was once told that a leader without followers is not a leader. Why would people follow someone? In answering that question lie the answers of leadership.

allowing freedom to all is imo the opposite of good leadership. it makes the 'leader' the follower of multiple ships, each following their own drum.

respecting individuality is a loaded statement. most often used by someone who could not get things his way.
being part of a team implies that you surrender part of your personal ideas and interest for the common good. (e.g. in a job you cannot do whatever you want. same with a sports team; put the best players in a team together does not garantee succes, but when players decide to play together than that team will create a synergy that outperforms expectations.)

holding back answers, another loaded statement. i can come up with several reasons. E.g. the answer will be beyond comprehension and only lead to undesired results when acted upon. Or the question was not a real question, but a challenge on authority and leadership. Or the answer will discourage because it seems to be an impossible goal. Or the answer was given but not accepted as the answer. answering the question can be counterproductive for the development of the guild or player.
I can go on.

red tape? are there guilds with a huge bureaucracy? or do you mean that leaders lead and expect to be followed? not a bad trait in a leader.

i have no idea who your insider is. but from what you wrote i figure that he holds a grudge for not being part of the 'leadership' in the guild. (that is having not enough followers to be recognized as a leader )

[Twilight Consortium]

We are in the same guild now through and through, I have no form of animosity against John Avery. I only regarded John Avery attack as an opportunistically cunning and definitely with a strong purpose of breaking the guild with a judgement for timing.

As a veteran warrior he knows very well the warriors who would hit back ten fold when instigated vs the merchants who are armed for self-defense. By his experiences it won't be surprising to think he fought countless such individuals and has quite a good gauge on each individuals in tor before his nuclear voodoos.

Looking around, when a fighter goes to war its common place for him/her to either target the warrior or the veterans. Much of the supporting staffs will be at the back munching corndog, watching -------and sending help to prevent ship sinking.

In the case of Tor, the veteran warriors and strategists went on journeys of their own one by one: each with their own dreams and purpose. Just like any stories you heard, when leaderships up roots and moved on, it leaves behind a gapping hole. Unless you put Obama or Ben Franklin or Lee Kuan Yew in, the new leadership will not be able to gain grounds on their roles or on the members in such short span of time.

Naturally, weeds will grow. Things will go lax. Before we know it, DT runs USA to the grounds( im kidding, he will make it great[again]). There wasn't any direct cause. Avery hasten the process. Though there wasn't any open discussions for the group either, It was a up and leave- a simple click of a mouse. We are united on that front.

I'm left with a deep sense of contemplation. Maybe when Shadow left, he took along with him the spirit of the guild that's much revolved around mi casa country.

Well, a shell was just emptied of souls. And like a hermit crab, another will take the shell as it's home.
Revolution of life.

On all of that, I wasn't fully online for the whole month. Logging for some voodoos is all I could manage.. sorry guys...

[Donald Trump]

My answer to your predicaments about TOR will not answered, due to the confidentiality of the person(s).


A leader is there to guide a group to its main direction imo. But, the opinion of others in the guild should be presented as well. A leader is not a leader without its followers. And if the people believe their reasons/doubts/opinions won't be conveyed in any jurisdiction, then the system will fail. This has been shown multiple times through history.

Questions? Well by that I meant helping newbies and being straightforward if anything else, but okay.

And no, red tape is the OVER insistent reviewal of a leader's/person's decisions. In a case where a person who is in power simply cannot make any move. It is a very slow type of system, and often disliked. If you listen to the UN news, many people criticize the UN's small amount achievements by their red tape procedures.

^
It is kinda you purposely excluded part of the definition of red tape to meet your argument. Kinda cheap.

excessive bureaucracy or adherence to rules and formalities, especially in public business.

The type of leadership you support sounds like more a dictatorship than anything else.

------------

Taking others opinions and no red tape can sometimes be opposites. That is when executive (leader) decisions must be made. This is my opinion of balance between the people in charge and the people not in charge.

[Maha]

My answer to your predicaments about TOR will not answered, due to the confidentiality of the person(s).

np, I respect that

A leader is there to guide a group to its main direction imo. But, the opinion of others in the guild should be presented as well. A leader is not a leader without its followers. And if the people believe their reasons/doubts/opinions won't be conveyed in any jurisdiction, then the system will fail. This has been shown multiple times through history.

"the main direction" the 'vision' or purpose of being; that should bind individuals together to that common goal. a training guild is unique because the members have different 'purposes'; the leaders to train and mature others, the rest to be trained and become mature. a nuance that splits a training guild in two separate groups out of necessity. a training guild is more like a class with teacher/mentors and students, seldom do students graduate and become mentors without gaining experience outside the classroom. Presenting ideas and following them up are 2 different things. we see enough 'strange suggestions being made on the forum by players that did not think their suggestion through enough or understand the context in which that suggestion is made. in a training guild i assume it will be doubly so.

And no, red tape is the OVER insistent reviewal of a leader's/person's decisions. In a case where a person who is in power simply cannot make any move. It is a very slow type of system, and often disliked. If you listen to the UN news, many people criticize the UN's small amount achievements by their red tape procedures.

^
It is kinda you purposely excluded part of the definition of red tape to meet your argument. Kinda cheap.

excessive bureaucracy or adherence to rules and formalities, especially in public business.

The type of leadership you support sounds like more a dictatorship than anything else.

i used "huge", instead of excessive so, rephrase, are there guilds with excessive bureaucracy or adherence to rules and formalities?
a dictator is a leader who forces people to follow him. who is or was bullied to stay in a guild? what kind of thread or force was used? maybe i am naive, but if you don't want to follow you just leave the guild. freedom of choice, take all or take none!

Taking others opinions and no red tape can sometimes be opposites. That is when executive (leader) decisions must be made. This is my opinion of balance between the people in charge and the people not in charge.

i truly do not understand what you say here.