Trader vrs. Pirate cost analysis

[The Lamb]

So I just spent a large amount of time collecting data from the game and sticking them into a spreadsheet to see if it really is as easy and unbalanced in traders favor and will gladly post the spread sheet if anyone wishes to see the raw data.

A few things I had to do to compare apples to apples since everyone has their own special sauce.

For all Tech calculations, all gold bars were converted to an average of $2100 GC. Tech costs lifted from University table. Ships base costs from market, ship upgrade costs and upkeep costs from shipwright. Officers costs based on average(ish) .

I assumed Pirates used 5 attack fleets
I assumed Traders had 5 attack fleets and 200 trade fleets.
Obviously there will be differences but i had to start somewhere and this seemed to be a good sample set.
All ships in fleets leveled to 10 except LMM's, since one only need upgrade to avg. lvl 5 to max sails and hammocks for trading.

I selected 3 power levels of each player type because of the costs associated with the different levels of player(s).
1. Pirate 1 - No tech, has (3) type 1 fleets and (2) type 2 fleets
2. Pirate 2 - w/tech, has (3) type 1 fleets and (2) type 2 fleets
3. Pirate 3 - w/tech and extra skirmish tech, has (3) type 1 fleets and (2) type 2 fleets
4. Trader 1 - w/tech, has (3) type 1 fleets, (2) type 2 fleets and (200) type 3 fleets
5. Trader 2 - w/tech and warehouse tech for party trades, has (3) type 1 fleets, (2) type 2 fleets and (200) type 3 fleets
6. Trader 3 - w/tech and warehouse tech for party trades, has (3) type 1 fleets, (2) type 2 fleets and (200) type 4 fleets with escorts.

Ship Fleet types and costs per fleet.
Type 1 - (1) Large Frigate, (2) Flag Galleons, (1) Sloop - Total costs with upgrades $20,650,290 - Maint p/day $4735
Type 2 - (3) SOTL, (1) Large Frigate, (1) Sloop - Total costs with upgrades $63,412,130 - Maint p/day $7320
Type 3 - (4) LMM , (1) Howker - Total costs with upgrades - $1,712,112 - Maint p/day $2990
Type 4 - (1) Flag Galleon, (3) LMM, (1) Howker - Total costs with upgrades $6,286,922 - Maint p/day $3690

I figured these were the minimum Techs each player would do.

Techs used:
1. Pirate 1 - no tech - cost to complete -$0
2. Pirate 2 - Gun powder, Metallurgy and Piracy maxed - Cost to complete $650,028,612
3. Pirate 3 - Gun powder, Metallurgy, Piracy and Skirmish Tactics - Cost to complete $895,309,385
4. Trader 1 - Officer Contracts, Gun Powder, Metallurgy - Cost to complete $680,542,551
5. Trader 2 - Officer Contracts, Gun Powder, Metallurgy, Storage Contracts - Cost to complete $750,829,043
6. Trader 3 - Officer Contracts, Gun Powder, Metallurgy, Storage Contracts, Spanish Galleons - Cost to complete $991,008,295

Officers Costs are an estimated average, i couldn't for the life of me remember where the price starts so i used a low ball starting point and then averaged costs
1. Pirates with 5 Battle Fleets - 25 Captains, 5 Admirals - Total estimated costs - $6,000,000
2. Traders with 5 Battle Fleets and 200 trade fleets - 1025 Captains, 205 Admirals, 200 Merchants - Total Estimated costs w/tech - $4,875,000,000

So like i said i had to compile a lot of data. One gaming school of thought is that the more invested (time, money, strategy) the higher the reward due to the higher investment. One school of thought may think that its a pirates game so no such rules of economics/game play need apply, however I would make the argument that no one should be able to wipe anyone in 24 hours for a few credits of voodoo IF they want the game to last and I think that is what CJ is alluding to here.

Here are the total invested IF all stated above are held true for the 6 different types of players in my little experiment.
1. Pirate 1 no tech - Total invested - $194,755,130 - daily upkeep - $28,845
2. Pirate 2 w/tech - Total Invested - $844,803,742 - daily upkeep - $28,845
3. Pirate 3 w/tech + Skirmish tech - Total invested -$1,090,084,515 - daily upkeep - $28,845
4. Trader 1 w/tech - Total invested - $6,086,740,081 - Daily upkeep $626,845
5. Trader 2 w/tech, warehouse tech for party trades - Total invested - $6,157,026,573 - Daily upkeep $626,845
6. Trader 3 w/tech, warehouse tech for party trades + escorts - Total invested - $7,312,167,825 - Daily upkeep $766,845

So if you think of the time and swag involved in game to get to be a "Trader 3", how easy do you really think traders have it? How easy should it be to steal what was built? How easy should it be to wipe it all away? Thats the problem here, take a complicated game and make it easy to destroy a few years work in a day and new people may just stop. Only a few of us are stubborn enough to stick around and even fewer of us to spend RL swag on a system so fragile which is why there are 11-14k players in a world of billions.

I for one would support any changes that make the game less fear of loosing it all while you sleep and more fun of ship to ship battles, port battles/blockades and a better voodoo balance that rewards in-game investment but still allows the new pirate to still take a bite.

[Haron]

I think El D's post and my reply (this post) should be moved to another thread.

This is about what we want the game to be. Personally, I much prefer that the game encourages conflict and action. Idle building games are not that interesting, in my opinion, and also, I think other games are better in that category. So I want the game to encourage conflict. More PvP action of varying degree.

And yes, there is no doubt that it is possible to invest a lot as a merchant. However, that is exactly one of the problems. They are able to invest and grow. Pirates are not. There is piracy tech, and to some extent skirmish tech, but that's it (Gunpowder and metallurgy? Don't make me laugh!). There's no point in investing in more captains or more ships. That does not make you a "better" pirate. A pirate has expenses too, but those are not "investments", as they are LOST, instead of invested. I looked at the voodoo I cast during the last month. I cast 423 cards, at a market value of 908 credits. That's around 330M gc with the current credit prices. A trader can invest that and grow. A pirate SPENDS that, and stays the same. He does NOT grow stronger. If those 330M were an INVESTMENT, making me grow into a stronger pirate, that would have been something else. And I have not even included all the credits spent on turns. And this was AFTER the attack on Edward's fleet, so the voodoo spent on that attack is not included here.

Also, none of the things a trader invest in is very exposed to being destroyed. Tech is completely safe. The same is warehouse levels. It IS possible to kill captains with assassin cards, but that's extremely expensive and does not bring any income, so it's purely for vengeance. All a smart trader (i.e. Jim) can lose, is the gold he has on hand and some howker tails. That's it.

And I am concerned about the connection between profit and RISK. That is more important than the connection between profit and INVESTMENT. Once the investment is made, the profit stays high - forever. So even if it takes a year to get back, the next years that is simply more profit. What matters is how much RISK is associated with profit. And right now, there is very little risk involved in most forms of profit. Gold smiths? Almost completely safe (you may lose a shipment to skirmish every blue moon). Plantations? Entirely risk free. Banks? Their risk is only in the form that people take loans and then quit the game. No other risk. Trading? You risk losing your gold on hand and a few howker tails. Can it be risky using Big Ships? If done wrong, yes. But it's usually safe. However, they are NOT generating income (unless used for piracy). So that's really beside the point.

So I'm not buying the "I invested a lot so I should be allowed to make a huge profit risk free". I don't agree with that at all. In my opinion, profit and risk should go hand in hand. If you want a huge profit, there should be a huge associated risk. And more importantly, there should be incentives for conflict. More PvP actions. Make the game feel less like a single player game. Set fleets to trade between warehouses. Log on once a day and cast two party cards. Repeat. Buy a new fleet when you get enough gold. That is NOT what I think should be the backbone of the game.

[The Lamb]

I absolutely agree with you Haron, there should be more moving parts that allow for action. This would be less of an idle building game if it weren't so easy to nuke a person, and that is what this thread is about. We both know a large trader has more to loose being lit up than a little coin and maybe a few howkers lol

I didnt want to include the voodoo thats used by both traders and pirates or planation's or, or or ... That would be too much for me just to show 1 point . I never said that there shouldn't be any risk for traders, with more profit comes more risk i was just debunking the old adage used by some that its too easy for traders. I also didnt put into the matrix the year/+ it takes just to research the techs, but i could remove gunpowder and metallurgy but that would just have lowered the investment of pirates even lower. I also didn't include and and and and....i get it. I was just showing a pure comparison.

This conversation was started when CJ was proposing some changes. Then to the conversation about pirates vrs. traders so i wanted to put together some numbers to show how easy traders have it . Of coarse they should have risk, but what is the risk for the pirate in my example. Zero. In the example, the pirate can just take a few days or weeks off and come back later, a pirate can just attack and attack with nothing to loose. I assuming that's why you never see a pirate research, stalk and light up another pirate.

Imagine your profits if everyone was all pirates? In a healthy game, you should want to encourage more trading/traders to build up, because that's more swag for those who choose to be pirates, not trying to justify how hard pirates have it and how easy it is to trade. Pirates aren't supposed to make millions upon millions every day waiting to take stuff from others. If they want to make millions and millions a day, they should do some of the stuff you mentioned on the side. Just as the risk should rise with the reward, the reward should also rise with the risk.

Traders are already in short supply, and many other players conduct piracy behind nation flags, while many others decided not to be traders because it not worth the headache/risk. A trader should always make more GC because they invested more GC because its a game that wants people to come and invest! Most traders wish they could attack more, but they are too vulnerable to the nuclear option. Currently in the game you can only really do one or the other. I for one would love to see less nuclear options and more attacking done by all.

No one should compare pirates profits with other money making strategies because of coarse the investment, risk, reward is tied together. You cant just leave one of them out because it doesn't fit your argument. You also cant say "well that trader just invested 7 billion, see its easy." How long did it take to raise that level of swag, level that tech, etc?

Its very easy to over simplify how easy it all is, but if that were true, wouldn't more be doing it since the main goal of the game is making swag to invest in operations to make more swag? A trader chooses to invest swag in tech/ships/captains, you choose to invest swag in voodoo. Same/same, just the tech returns the investment over time and voodoo returns investment at once.

It would seem that CJ is looking for a way for people to build something AND attack as those are the games that the most people want to play

[Haron]

El Ds points:

1) We both know a large trader has more to loose being lit up than a little coin and maybe a few howkers lol

2) I assuming that's why you never see a pirate research, stalk and light up another pirate.


3) Traders are already in short supply

4) I for one would love to see less nuclear options and more attacking done by all.

5) No one should compare pirates profits with other money making strategies because of coarse the investment, risk, reward is tied together. You cant just leave one of them out because it doesn't fit your argument. You also cant say "well that trader just invested 7 billion, see its easy." How long did it take to raise that level of swag, level that tech, etc?

6) Its very easy to over simplify how easy it all is, but if that were true, wouldn't more be doing it since the main goal of the game is making swag to invest in operations to make more swag?


My replies:

1) No. A smart trader only loses a little gold and some tails, that's it. A stupid trader may lose a SoL or two as well, but the smart trader only loses gold and some tails.

2) You assume wrong. This has not been uncommon. There has in fact been a lot of behind the scenes diplomacy to reduce this, so pirates can operate better. That has not been easy. Pirates were once other pirate's worst enemies.

3) I think you may be the only one in the game who thinks so. There are less than ten pirates in the game, the rest are traders.

4) There is really no true "nuclear option". Not if you are in a good guild. To do anything even close, a player needs to spend a lot of resources. And being able to stop another player temporarily - if at a high cost - is one of the things that are good in the game. The one advantage of a pirate.

5) Investments are one time. Then there's just profit. Investments should give the possibility to get a higher income, but it should also come with a higher risk, is my argument.

6) Uhm, most people DO operate as traders. Some chose to stay small traders for some reason, perhaps. Beats me why. And if the main goal of the game was to make as much gold as possible, I would definitely be a large trader, too. I know how to do that easily, as most others. However, as I see the goal of the game being about having the most FUN, not the most GOLD, I try playing another way.


This still belongs in another thread, in my opinion.

[Dmanwuzhere]

mechanics are either a traders (or any class) best buddy or his worst nightmare
stay within the bounds keeping your sink rate in mind or be arrogant until you lose cap fleets and then cry
keeping a mb and good cash on hand only protects you until you are drained and without a mb
but no one will spend to steal your lmms unless you have little cash on hand and your guild at the very least should geno you
im not a fan of pirate traders or trader pirates
but i understand the ego and both want to be good at the other
that makes them weak in their respective fields of expertise and most importantly renders them vulnerable to multiple angles of attack

but if you plan well and adhere to smart use of mechanics you are relatively safe and ship stealing becomes a gamble and due to the voodoo involved a very expensive gamble

i didnt like being lit it required i go at the offender full force as if they stole my children --- so trading was not for me
piracy sucks so i sit with a flag somewhere in the middle hoping something moves me to be one thing or another
but until it does i float my boats and laugh at funny mustaches and traders rarely lit who cry the most
of all the people who could complain you are certainly somewhere on the bottom el draque

[DezNutz]

TOPIC has been split from https://www.piratesglory.com/main.php?m ... 6%23p96476 as notated:

I think El D's post and my reply (this post) should be moved to another thread.

[The Lamb]

not sure why this was moved. I was trying to show support for CJ's changes but....

Lol Dman that is all true! And I am far from complaining, I was just trying to say to all those who think it's easy to be a trader its not. It can be boring Just like its not easy to be a pirate and im sure that can be boring as well. We are playing a timer game after all.

The ease in which a person can be lit keeps most people from sailing more ships and fighting more battles can anyone at least agree with that? All i was saying is fix the nuclear option, toss in some more battle mechanics (port blockades, armada battles, i think i heard someone say involving crew battles to board and steal ships..awesome!) and more and more people will want to fight, more people will want to stay cause they can build and fight.

Thats why I agree with any changes that will open up the game, even if it means a change in the normal way of business. Pirate Techs, a pirate port, contraband holds for pirate trading etc. I would love to see inf count towords a pirate king

Of coarse this is all my opinion, and Haron, i think your right... there are a bunch of traders just most are smaller

I only say Swag be the mission because everything to invest in the game requires swag.

I still think CJ's original mission here in this post, is to decrease overall loss potential to allow for more ship battles. but i could be wrong.

[DezNutz]

not sure why this was moved. I was trying to show support for CJ's changes but....

I agreed with Haron. Your post, while you may have wrote as support of CJ's posts, definitely veered into a separate discussion.

[The Lamb]

Fair enough.

Too wordy?

You know i like to keep my posts short and to the point!

[Argo]

I'm still no good yet with the numbers and % but I do understand that traders trade 24/7.52/52 if they choose.
A pirates working day is far shorter. And the hours can be less than a few minutes. Or often less than a minute.
The prep behind it may take days to set up and pirates don't get paid for that either.
In my experience, a good raid maybe 2-3 a week solo - a few more if you team up.
Not a whinge - I like it personally - but am trying to put things in perspective for myself as well.
Thanks to all contributing here about this.