Clock's question on Dman for CJ

[DezNutz]

Dez, that has already been done. One on one, he can be beaten into submission. I have done such, Vane has done such. However, he is a member of the most powerful guild in the game. He started getting help (A Lot of voodoo help!) from others in the guild and his best bud Xpro. I have had Fenixs Xpro, and Nelson throw hundreds of voodoo at me, while I play the game like you suggest in your post above. It has gotten past the point of acceptable comments and actions. That is why we are asking that something be done. Only asking, not disparaging comments and insults that try to deflect from the situation. I know you are easily entertained by such. But many are not

I understand your point.

Dman being in a powerful guild is not a rule violation. Yes it makes him harder to reach and gives him many resources, but VUDU has in the past allowed one of their own to take a hit when they have crossed the line. Maybe a discussion with guild leadership is something those that have issue with dman should consider (if this hasn't already been done)

WIth dman, those that have been around for a while, know how dman reacts. The same goes for most other players you have encountered for sometime. Instigating a player who reacts a certain way (i.e. Dman), shouldn't result in admonishment to said player.

When evaluating the situation, you have to rule out emotion and preconceptions. Facts of the situation need to be determined first.

Who struck first?
Was there instigation?
What was the level of retaliations?
Was any cease fire called in effort to resolve?
Was that broken and by who?
Was that instigated?
Do actions against others relate to the originating situation?
If they do, how?
If they don't, they take not part in the situation at hand.


These are all relevant and while it is simple to just not like the way dman conducts his actions, if his actions are acceptable to the situation, then it is just that.

And while I do enjoy the entertainment, I also understand that the community as a whole must also enjoy the atmosphere.

Just an added thought here, have you considered that you and others are playing into dman's hands. Feeding what he wants, particularly the showing that he ruffled your feathers openly in the forums.


To address Danik:

As for the allegations of extortion (forced milking), the player that presented them is considered one of the community administrators. If there was clear and cut details for such a claim, he could and should have presented it to the other admins and reported it directly, not using the forums and posting about. Clear rule violations aren't to be discussed openly. It's not a discussion point. Griefing on the other hand, is not a cut and dry issue. Perspective, the actions taken, and the intent of those actions all matter.

[Most Lee Harmless]

The in-game admins do not have access to server data : by game admins I refer to CJ. I agree the evidence should be presented to CJ. But public comment also serves a role : how many others have had to pay out for peace and quiet and felt powerless to raise the issue?
Worse for the game is how many just logged off and went elsewhere instead? That should be a concern for all of us because that does happen. Personally, I have quit several games due to such behaviour to new players on the grounds that its not worth my time staying. I'm a player, not some super-hero with a duty to clean up Dodge City. If I cant play and enjoy that playing the game has failed... move on. So, when we next get all angsty about player-retention.. think on that.

[DezNutz]

Actually, the allegations of extortion are very much against the games rules : its enforced milking of an acct such that the acct is not played for its own benefit. So allegations of extortion need investigating on that basis alone.

Note: I have not said extortion IS happening, but allegations HAVE been made. The accuracy of these allegations can only be determined by the game admins who have a clear overview of all the needed data. The community does not have that overview, so it remains a 'he said, they said, we said, I said' debate which can only lead to more agro.

On a personal note : extortion is a crappy way to go about things, same as other forms of toxic play, it will destroy folks interest in and desire to play this game. Its not just about using tactics that bump up ethically against the rules and looking for a loophole or precedent to excuse that. We should not need to be looking for loopholes or exploitation to enjoy this game. Neither should players, new or old, have their gametime made uncomfortable or unbearable by others 'staying inside the rules' but acting like prime shytes in doing so.

In the end every player here is a human being. Treat each other with some respect. Enjoy your time here but it need not be at the expense of others fun. Being the big boss of an empty playground is not fun, its dull. Which is kinda contrary to the whole notion of playing a game.. whuch is supposed to be about fun.

Yes, extortion would be a clear rule violation; however, rule violations are to be reported to the administration, not posted about in a public forum.

If there was actual evidence of such, being that Clock is considered a community administrator, he should have reported it to CJ outright and presented it to myself and Meliva for awareness. From my perspective, posting about it in the forums is just a ploy to gain favor in the community for their side of the argument.

I agree with your last paragraph.

We should treat everyone with respect. Don't be vindictive in your actions. Play the game, have fun, and be considerate of others. Keep in mind that your perspective isn't the only ones here and isn't the only ones that matter. As well, you don't have to like someone to be respectful.

[Magnus the red]

except the thread says not to message him and to use this instead and nothing I report gets handled or even gets a response.

[DezNutz]

The in-game admins do not have access to server data : by game admins I refer to CJ. I agree the evidence should be presented to CJ. But public comment also serves a role : how many others have had to pay out for peace and quiet and felt powerless to raise the issue?
Worse for the game is how many just logged off and went elsewhere instead? That should be a concern for all of us because that does happen. Personally, I have quit several games due to such behaviour to new players on the grounds that its not worth my time staying. I'm a player, not some super-hero with a duty to clean up Dodge City. If I cant play and enjoy that playing the game has failed... move on. So, when we next get all angsty about player-retention.. think on that.

Yes, I know you were referring to CJ. Public comment definitely serves a role in Griefing, but not for clear and cut rule violations. If a player is harassing another, we shouldn't be holding a public debate on it. It's not for debate. They are to be reported to CJ, and if the player chooses to, the community admins.

One of my biggest concerns, just like similar accusations (xpro, banger, etc), is where are these new players that are being raked over the coals by dman? Why are they not coming forward with details? Why are 90% of the reports always from veterans? It's a factor that has to be considered. Is it really a new player issue or just a history of players not liking dman and jumping on the band wagon over past grievances.

Yes, we should ALL be able to enjoy the game. That includes both new players and veterans (even dman).

If in the end, dman's actions are considered inappropriate, then he will receive the consequences decided by CJ.

However, I have a feeling that some of the complaints stem from the "I got plundered and lost gc" line of thinking. It's a game expectation. But because dman's associated to the action, it's elevated to toxic game play and griefing. Replace dman's name with someone who doesn't have a history of stirring the pot with such actions. Would the same post be made in the forums.

[DezNutz]

except the thread says not to message him and to use this instead and nothing I report gets handled or even gets a response.

You aren't directly messaging him. There is an in game link to report rule violations.

https://s2.piratesglory.com/index.php?page=contact

[Padrevaters]

Clearly the same load of whatever ... from Dez again. Are you trying to protect Dmanz or are you asking newcomers to despair and quit the game?!? Ask any player new or otherwise the same questions, Dez.

Who struck first?
Was there instigation?
What was the level of retaliations?
Was any cease fire called in effort to resolve?
Was that broken and by who?
Was that instigated?
Do actions against others relate to the originating situation?
If they do, how?
If they don't, they take not part in the situation at hand.

Does he use Deluge as a front? Yes. Every player in this forum is testament to this. Attack Dmanz and Deluge voodoos back. Voodoo Deluge, and Dmanz attacks you and voodoos you in under 5 minutes! Multiple players in Guard are testament to this.

As for extortion, what is that proof you seek? IF the player reveals himself here giving you proof, what is that action you will or can take? There is definitive proof and we can give it, but what is the guarantee that you will not subtext it that we are trying to highlight ourselves as you are doing now? Can you spell out what is that action you will take if proof is provided?

That's the nail on the head I have been aiming for, Danik! Dez may feel there is nothing wrong with what Dmanz is doing. Except for the feeling of despondency and failure which prevails on any new player as a result of Dmanz actions. Dez states that the players of all guilds can collectively choose to cast back if they stood by newbies. That does not happen, As in any online game, unless the newbie is consistent and active in the game, his voice goes unheard. Veterans dish out advise on, "cast and do not expect the opponent to keep quiet' even when knowing that a newcomer is always scared of targeting experienced players and there is no reason for them in doing so.
Questions Dmanz has to ask himself --> Why are you scared of a new player?
Regarding newcomer safeguards, probably, we have to change the game to a 30 day no attack on newcomers or from newcomers instead of a 1000 turn based model.

As for the newcomer, he will quit the game and move on to a different game where he is able to enjoy. But it is a loss to Piratesglory.

[Padrevaters]

except the thread says not to message him and to use this instead and nothing I report gets handled or even gets a response.

You aren't directly messaging him. There is an in game link to report rule violations.

https://s2.piratesglory.com/index.php?page=contact

Dez, don't quote the rule book and have us lodge complaints at a link. It did not work that way. What makes you think it will work now? Instead, use this forum as the complaint. Now define what is that action plan you have. Show me those transparent actions you have for any such violation. Once you have the action defined, from the next violation, you can question, and then take action. But spelling out the action is the deterrent we want. That deterrence acts as guidance for all players.

[Dmanwuzhere]

lol the no one hears from me until dez speaks profile

[Padrevaters]

I feel its actually wiser to debate with you Dmanz. I wish you would stop extreme actions and focus on a positive game. I beg of you, it makes the game more enjoyable to all of us.