Time for ranting

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Flaming is expected here. If you are easily offended, avoid this thread all together.

Re: Time for ranting

Postby Padrevaters » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:04 am

Hello CJ, this will be my first interaction with you, so I sure as hell hope I am not rubbing you the wrong way. ;)

Regarding Grimrock, I know his comments were wrong. The problem is with the designations given to player admins. Instead of game development coordinator, game administrator, just a staid forum moderator is perfectly understandable. I doubt any of the new players in the forum understand the difference between a game development coordinator and the actual development team. There is no linkage or reference to the actual development team here. All the admins here are appointed player administrators to help weed out the bad influences to the growth of the game and moderate the game discussions while collecting good suggestions for overall development of game. Grimrock may not have an understanding, what have the administrators done to help make him understand? Some players require a repeated drilling into their thick skull, but we must do that as player administrators.

Secondly, when a player administrator targets him after losing his cool, he could have just responded stating that he was unable to help as it was too much or just asked Grimlock to provide the complete information on his request. I have seen those discussions, and see that they are only discussions. If Grimrock had an idea, he must have provided the complete details, and then an answer provided to sufficiently disprove. That's what the role ensures. Not wanting to respond, is perfectly understandable and hold off till you have the time or procrastinate. Else have a discussion and try explaining if you have the patience. Remember you are allowed to lose your cool. By specifically targeting him, you are indirectly portraying the wrong image. What followed was my highlighting the 'confused' act.

As player administrators, remember that the interests of the game take precedence over personal interests. Since you 'volunteered' of your own free will and there was no coercion from anyone. Remember that a player administrator voluntarily seeks the position and for what reason? Is it personal gain or for long term growth of the game? If it is personal gain, he is better off focusing on himself as a player. So while you are allowed to joke, play around and generally rib the noobs and experienced alike, you cannot launch on personal diatribes because you asked for the responsibility of a player admin. This defeats the very purpose of having administrators. It throws the game in negative light.

Some players are confused as to what constitutes playing and bullying. PiratesGlory is an attacking game and attacks obviously are the main theme in game. But here too, when players gang up, some level of 'abuse while playing' occurs. When the administrator specifically targets players with ribbing comments in the discussion forum without making their position clear that it is a joke, then it does constitute as 'abuse' while trying to have a sane conversation. There are people here from multiple geographic regions and they may not agree with the general answer. Point is a dissent note is a sign of your popularity. A player contradicting your stand verbally in a reasonable discussion shows his interest in conversing with you. When he just gives up fearing abuse, then it becomes a problem, both for him and the playing community. Allow dissent to happen within the confines of a discussion forum. The player admins have the ultimate power of blocking abusive comments, so why does a player admin have to be scared of noobs?!

When this happens repeatedly by player admins over a period of time, then it leads to distrust.
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby sXs » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:11 am

Captain Jack wrote:
None but Dez and clockwork feel the need to disagree with Grim. Feniks too I think as he gives a different poimt of view. Maybe I am indeed a lazy dev that comes up with half-ass fixes and rules? The absent part at least has been debated a bit by Stan.


I do disagree with most of What Grim had to say, but also admit to being frustrated at times. Now the following is my personal opinion only. I can oly speak for myself.

#1 One of the main frustrations seems to be come from A lack of understanding as to what the authorities and duties of moderators, development team members and others. You are correct in that statement CJ. Maybe clarification. I know these were all posted when positions were filled, but there still may be confusion.

#2 Another frustration is the speed at which approved suggestions get addressed. The player development team was tasked with review, approval, and disapproval to help clear up the suggestion thread as stated. Maybe, we could get an updated developers priority list as it relates specifically to suggestions approved by player development team. This point has been commented on by others as well.

#3 Forum rules need clarification. I enjoy a good sledge and banter as much, if not more than most, but I believe it should be relegated to union of honor only. Some of it crosses the line yes, but if it remains in one thread it can easily be ignored. It seems to have crept into absolutely every thread in forums including the suggestion thread. Forum mods have been too lenient in my opinion.

Just a few points here unrelated to the previous. The development team actually does not do development. We simply review suggestions, maybe offer some amendments, and vote to approve or reject. If one of us offers a suggestion, it goes through the exact same process as everyone else's suggestions.

Also, for those who do not know, The forum mods, development team, PR and social media team are all just players trying to help make the game be better. So, our primary reason for signing in daily, weekly or however much we do, is to play the game just like everyone else. There are no perks. For me, this has been complicated at times. I catch hell for some things because of the development team moniker when actually I am just a player like everyone else. That being said, I do think there is also a bit of responsibility that goes along with it. Where that line exists, is for CJ to decide.
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Psychodad » Sun Aug 18, 2019 9:54 am

So how do I get the health of my workers in the plantation up? I have shortened work hours increased meals, poured thousands of gold bars into the kitchens and housing (never able to get more than half a star), redistributed acreage to the areas of concern and still my people are suffering.

That is the real crime here, the suffering of the workers.
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Meliva » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:00 am

Psychodad wrote:So how do I get the health of my workers in the plantation up? I have shortened work hours increased meals, poured thousands of gold bars into the kitchens and housing (never able to get more than half a star), redistributed acreage to the areas of concern and still my people are suffering.

That is the real crime here, the suffering of the workers.


The problem is the thousands of gold bars you're pouring into the kitchens and housing. Have you tried eating one of those things? Or sleeping on them? Or how hard it is to build a decent shelter with them? Of course the workers are gonna have bad health when all they have is gold bars for food and housing. Pretty to look at, but that's about it :D
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Psychodad » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:02 am

Meliva wrote:
Psychodad wrote:So how do I get the health of my workers in the plantation up? I have shortened work hours increased meals, poured thousands of gold bars into the kitchens and housing (never able to get more than half a star), redistributed acreage to the areas of concern and still my people are suffering.

That is the real crime here, the suffering of the workers.


The problem is the thousands of gold bars you're pouring into the kitchens and housing. Have you tried eating one of those things? Or sleeping on them? Or how hard it is to build a decent shelter with them? Of course the workers are gonna have bad health when all they have is gold bars for food and housing. Pretty to look at, but that's about it :D


I have to go vote in that poll on professionalism from moderators....
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Captain Jack » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:16 am

The roles as well as the roster can be found here:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4883

There are also in-depth rules for the dev team which hopefully can cover all questions while allowing everyone to participate. You can find these at the dev forums here:
viewforum.php?f=48

For reference, posts at development forums do not show up at the tavern in a deliberate way to make these discussions a hobby and not something that abruptly changes your every day gameplay. So far, it is not working as intended.

The above info needs to be communicated constantly till we find a way to guide everyone, not only newcomers in how the whole system works or better put , we want it to work. Some diagrams for example could help.

We need to keep in mind that the system is new. The players who took the roles are still inexperienced. Inexperience will bring mistakes and they have to take a portion of responsibility for not communicating their role to the rest.

For example, I have received actual reports with complaints for bad attitude, which is alarming but expected. It takes time to realize that the only actual prestige such roles offer is the community acceptance which however takes a long time to come and is never absolute. So, to player admins I suggest to them to try to do what their role is requiring. No overextend is needed. They are all a piece of a puzzle, the same puzzle. To the rest of the community I suggest patience. Try to help them realize their roles trying to avoid direct criticism.

Of course, we will need to extend the player admins system with some rules. Rules that will define when an admin is not fulfilling his role as expected and the replacement process. For instance, acceptable inactivity. Such things are loosely defined right now and fall into my hands. My willingness is to give community 100% to the players. If I get to choose the admins, it is not 100%. To close this chapter, I must underline that the dev team is named Players dev team and their primary objective is to organize PLAYER suggestions. We are not yet to the point that the player dev team will decide what actually gets developed. This is solely decided by me. So right now, you might all agree that we need to give an extra present per day. If I disagree, this will not pass. In the future though, I want to change this and I have designed exactly the system in how this will work without any issues at all, for everyone involved. Before we get there, we need the dev team to actually work in the intended way. First and foremost, the clearing of all current ideas and suggestions is required. This has been the primary objective and as it proves out, it is a daunting task. We need you all to help here by realizing that even if a good idea is turned down or a bad idea is approved, ultimately it helps the game progress as we move from no decision to a decision which is always better.

Here we return back to the no overextend part. One step at a time. Before we move to the actual implementations, the clearing must complete. Do not worry about the next step yet.

The need for clearing sources from all the posted vague ideas players have posted over the years. Posts in the same manner Grim is posting. There are two quality parts here: Instead of dismissing all these ideas and starting with a clean sheet, we now have a team to scavenge through them. The second quality part is that this is working up to the point that new vague ideas are responded in time, instead of piling up as before. So, if Grim and anyone has an idea, he has to become specific, with details. If he cannot, the rest can help. If none can help after a set time, then the idea can stall in game discussion. If the idea however has parts that are contradicting or have been discussed elsewhere before or are unrealistic, then yes it must be disapproved. We have dozens of THOUSANDS posts in such topics. They need a decision. That's what the dev team is expected to do.

I have no real suggestion in how to help admins to separate their position when posting. I do not want to restrict the game fun for them. If an admin wants to exhaust his player side by taking it personal with someone, he should not be contained by his role. After all, the forum rules are the same for all and in general they must not moderate their own clashes. To be sincere though, I have not seen an admin overextend at the forums. For example, dez had some personal harassments in this topic which he has not moderated ehile he could. It might have happened elsewhere though as i no longer read all posts. In this case we need to underline it and be forgiving while they get the needed experience. Experience that you should also gain as you might all find yourself in their boots in the future. At all cases, what we should not do is to keep judging on past mistakes. This is why I mention we need to be forgiving.

While I agree with the last paragraph ( padrevaters ) I do not believe we are at such stage. If we are, I have missed it. At all cases, there is a community administrator where everyone can turn to for such cases. So, before you feel that the game is in a bad turn, you as the non admin player should also learn to discern the player admin from the game. The game is not a player admin and a player admin is not the game. We speak about community admins after all. Not game admins. Community admins that have a community administrator above them. Like I said, we can take responsibility for poor communication of the roles, both me and the player admins but the game cannot take the responsibility of a single admins actions. If Deznutz goes nuts tomorrow, it is Deznutz that went nuts and not the game. The game has fail safe mechanisms to cover from there.

To give an actual example, without knowing your specific case in detail, I highly doubt that you have been unfairly treated above. I trust that Deznutz was fair. Still, it is not my place to investigate. For such cases, the best practice is to pm the mod about it. You can include in the message the community admin to also be aware of the conversation. The mod should be able to reason any warning based on the forum rules. This is what they should use and what you should be aware of.
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Captain Jack » Sun Aug 18, 2019 10:27 am

Feniks wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:
None but Dez and clockwork feel the need to disagree with Grim. Feniks too I think as he gives a different poimt of view. Maybe I am indeed a lazy dev that comes up with half-ass fixes and rules? The absent part at least has been debated a bit by Stan.


I do disagree with most of What Grim had to say, but also admit to being frustrated at times. Now the following is my personal opinion only. I can oly speak for myself.

#1 One of the main frustrations seems to be come from A lack of understanding as to what the authorities and duties of moderators, development team members and others. You are correct in that statement CJ. Maybe clarification. I know these were all posted when positions were filled, but there still may be confusion.

#2 Another frustration is the speed at which approved suggestions get addressed. The player development team was tasked with review, approval, and disapproval to help clear up the suggestion thread as stated. Maybe, we could get an updated developers priority list as it relates specifically to suggestions approved by player development team. This point has been commented on by others as well.

#3 Forum rules need clarification. I enjoy a good sledge and banter as much, if not more than most, but I believe it should be relegated to union of honor only. Some of it crosses the line yes, but if it remains in one thread it can easily be ignored. It seems to have crept into absolutely every thread in forums including the suggestion thread. Forum mods have been too lenient in my opinion.

Just a few points here unrelated to the previous. The development team actually does not do development. We simply review suggestions, maybe offer some amendments, and vote to approve or reject. If one of us offers a suggestion, it goes through the exact same process as everyone else's suggestions.

Also, for those who do not know, The forum mods, development team, PR and social media team are all just players trying to help make the game be better. So, our primary reason for signing in daily, weekly or however much we do, is to play the game just like everyone else. There are no perks. For me, this has been complicated at times. I catch hell for some things because of the development team moniker when actually I am just a player like everyone else. That being said, I do think there is also a bit of responsibility that goes along with it. Where that line exists, is for CJ to decide.



#1 We need to find these questions. From what I realize from padrevaters post, is that we need a better way to present to all. Diagrams maybe? With a link in game?

#2 What we mostly need right now is to clear all open suggestions. This will help me a lot. I have too many ideas for the game myself , some never mentioned or remotely discussed. I have 2 models in mind in how to proceed which I should analyse soon. Knowing what we have on the table and what not will greatly help in priorities and design.

Here I want to add that in my perspective the game needed some breathing. This is the 2nd time in 3 years that the game gave me this impression. The breathing time allows for better evaluation of what we have which in turns provides better insight in where to go.

#3 Leniency can be good. We all need to fight against toxicity. If we wait admins to do this on their own, it will only get worse. I prefer to be lenient with non vets and strict with vets. Most players will never read the forum rules so we need to guide them through their rule violations that inevitably come. This seems to work on the long run better than anything else.

As for the line, I prefer the players to set it at all cases. The least input you need from me, the better the things will go.
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time to drop this game for good

Postby Mack » Sun Aug 18, 2019 1:57 pm

i dont know i think that changjng the name of this topic was very disrespectful and bull shit
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Captain Jack » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:09 pm

Why? I find it very fitting for the post content and the discussion that followed.
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Re: Time for ranting

Postby Shadowood » Sun Aug 18, 2019 2:10 pm

Captain Jack wrote:
30 minutes later, Shadowood - to my surprise- fuels his post by virtually agreeing with all what Grim said.

Shadowood is also a player admin but he holds a different perspective which is very disappointing for me to evaluate.

( yes, I will keep posting this as I want to know if Shadowood indeed agrees with Grim. ).



CJ, my apologies for any miscommunication that a clapping gif portrayed. I was clapping that Grim was leaving the game. Grim and I have never shared the same views. Grim, a decent player, has always had a different view on the game and it’s mechanics which several player disagreed with.

I was simply “trolling” Grim not you or Pirates Glory. I hope that clears up my clapping gif
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