Port Blockades (Large)

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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Captain Jack » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:20 am

I am very thankful for ALL your answers. Most are to the point and they are really helpful.

Answers now (I have shortened them, as the initial post was a complete essay - please request details where you need such):
-There will be no limit in how many fleets one can use. We will require 5 ships per fleet though. I have added this to the first post.
-There will be no cost when adding a fleet. Perhaps we could add a turns cost but we will avoid this for now.
-I have added in the first post that non-participants will not be allowed to use fleet/ship voodoo against fleets in the blockade. I also excluded Swarm of Worms effects on blockade ships. So as Haron states, we merely speak only for the Kraken and Fire Ships.
-Leviathan is a tough call. If we allow this beast to roam, then it should go in the same list.

On the winning/engaging fleets issue:

Revision: Blockade Success Condition
Blockade is successful if attacking fleets are more than defending fleets and defenders have less than 5 fleets standing (This has been updated to the first post, we are awaiting your feedback)

This defeats most of the problems that were raised. Keep in mind that the winning side will get danger on their fleets, so adding a lot of fleets comes with its costs anyway.
The number of 5 fleets standing is not coincidental. We came down to this after some simulations. It gets real hard to get below 5 fleets in just 4 rounds, this is why 5 is our choice.

Here is a simulation to see what I mean:
Round 1: 100 Fleets vs 100 Fleets
Round 1 result: 60 Attacking Fleets win
Round 2: 40 Fleets vs 40 fleets with 20 attacking fleets resting
Round 2 result: 25 attacking fleets win
Round 3: 15 fleets vs 15 fleets with 35 attacking fleets resting
Round 3 result: 8 Attacking Fleets win
Round 4: 7 Attacking Fleets against 7 Defending fleets.
Round 4 result: At least 2 defending fleets remain.

Let me also underline some perks currently active:
-Attacker chooses his suitable timezone, so at the last 4 hours he will be around to add more fleets if needed.
-Allowing the defender to make a last stand in case things go really bad for him, adds excitement to the feature. It is not as strong as it may seem though as a side that has been left unchallenged for so long, will fully utilize the +15% health bonus/hour.

-I really like this idea by Meliva:
"The first round is random, then the 2nd round will be the victors of the first round will always be matched against a victor on the other side as the top priority"
Keep in mind that we can keep such as fleet options with % success and/or future specialization

Another idea that we had for the same issue, is that victorious fleets (those by far) will have a chance to fight another battle in the same round. This can again be either bestowed by specialization or improved through specialization (this can be a tech, techs are a form of specialization).

Such ideas, if they do not make it at version 1.0 (they may make it), they can always be used later. We can tweak victory conditions again later, once such ideas are incorporated. To be sincere, we would prefer total anihilation of one side to grant the victory so such ideas, that also include specialization sound very attractive.

The idea of having a fleet fight 1 battle per hour, is first and foremost because we want to incorporate the value of 2 fleets against 1 fleet. This one fleet might be better from both other 2 fleets but it still it is reasonable to need 2 hours to send them to sea bottom. In the mechanics proposed, thanks to the repair bonus on sit, we also incorporate the logical advantage that more ships give.

Moving on to the rest of questions/issues:

-There are plenty of MoWs out there with more coming out from newcomers. If you don't have one, perhaps it is time you start planning how to get one. ;) SoLs will anyway come out in more masses for this feature. It is MoWs that also need to come out.

-During Blockade resolution (lasts 24hours), you will be able to remove the fleets from the blockade. Once you do, you will be able to repair them again etc. The reason we will not allow automatic removal right away, is that this will make the whole feature very time pressing. We want players to put the fleets in the blockade and then go to sleep. Then once they are awake, they will be able to take their fleets out and deal with any danger that their fleets might have.

Given the chance, let me tell that we want PG to be a game where battle takes place when both sides of a friction,are conducting this when they are online. This is a real plague, that often goes unoticed, that most massively online games have. By nature, it is easier to beat someone when he sleeps. In PG, we are trying to make it as even as possible. We will never make it perfect but there can be improvement.

-In the above sense, nothing can happen instantly on this feature. It is a feature that will create the most massively playing part of the game, so far. The less demand it has for activity and specific timing, the merrier.



Closing up
-The first post has been revised with new accepted/suggested elements as discussed till this point. The easiest way to keep up is of course to read my whole post. Or at least the point that interested you before my post.

-You should not worry too much about the delay. The best thing we can do, is to have defined features, ready for coding. The hard part, is the design part. The part where the feature has everything defined. Then, the coding part is only a matter of time. I am saying only because design is also a matter of inspiration/creativity and inspiration/creativity does not always come along in a defined time window.

So, I would say that we are currently in an excellent state. We got 3 major features that are semi defined. Diplomacy one has little things left to define. Honor System mostly, it is small but tough. Then, Blockades currently have the upper hand over Plantations. Simply because Plantations are so massive as a feature. They require a base that is in existent. They require graphics. They have undefined formulas that are hard to define. There are many depending features. It's a massive one.

Blockades at the other hand, are again a major feature but much more defined. We have no formulas to define, no special graphics. No special base is required and the depending features are less. Perhaps the most challenging part of them, is their place on the interactive map later. But that's later, an interactive map problem. They also are a better feature to add as V2.0 than Plantations as the players that are not currently playing PG, will be interested to come and see how Blockades are scripted.

Sure though,the best would be that Plantations should follow right after Blockades, perhaps with only a few weeks in separation. Our objective is to make all these currently under discussion (Diplomacy,Blockades,Plantations) within 2017. This prerequisites that some parts of the less important diplomacy feature will pushed back for implementation after Plantations and you should be aware of this. Parts like Tribute,etc can all come in the CommonWealth System expansion.

This should not sound bad though. When it comes to major features (and Diplomacy is one of them), you can expect several expansions (Although Diplomacy should be regarded as an expansion to Nations Control feature).
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Haron » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:39 am

Regarding the ability for defenders to add fleets as late as 4 hours before the blockade ends:

What is the advantage for them to add any fleets BEFORE this? Is it not best for them to simply wait until this time, then add all their fleets? Perhaps you should amend the victory conditions, so that if at ANY time the defenders have less than five fleets "alive", they lose the blockade immediately? I think that either such a condition (or something similar) is necessary, or all fleets need to be entered before the combat starts.
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Haron » Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:47 am

Captain Jack wrote:-I really like this idea by Meliva:
"The first round is random, then the 2nd round will be the victors of the first round will always be matched against a victor on the other side as the top priority"
Keep in mind that we can keep such as fleet options with % success and/or future specialization


I first though that making it a swiss style tournament might be a good idea, too. See wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swiss-system_tournament for an explaination (I've played several tournaments in other games where this system is used - not sure how it works with the ability to add fleets after the fighting starts, though).

However: In this case, all the "losing" fleets are removed from the fight. Which means that the side who started with fewest fleets will ONLY have "winning" fleets left (the other side will also have fleets who have not yet fought). So basically, there only ARE winners. However, how the pairing works may be of great importance for this feature. "Random selection" will most likely be a huge advantage for the defenders (since they have to be completely eliminated in order to lose).
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Captain Jack » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:16 am

Haron wrote:Regarding the ability for defenders to add fleets as late as 4 hours before the blockade ends:

What is the advantage for them to add any fleets BEFORE this? Is it not best for them to simply wait until this time, then add all their fleets? Perhaps you should amend the victory conditions, so that if at ANY time the defenders have less than five fleets "alive", they lose the blockade immediately? I think that either such a condition (or something similar) is necessary, or all fleets need to be entered before the combat starts.


If they add no fleets before, all attacking fleets at 4hours before battle end, will have 300% more health (+15% per hour per ship).
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Captain Jack » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:17 am

Haron wrote: "Random selection" will most likely be a huge advantage for the defenders (since they have to be completely eliminated in order to lose).


Complete elimination is no longer the case. They must survive 5 fleets to stop the blockade (or have more fleets than the attacker).
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Most Lee Harmless » Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:46 am

I like it : the possibilities are endless in strategy terms ; can the mere threat of a blockade be used as a lever in diplomacy, for example.

On a tactical level, again, endless possibilities and permutations arise, for both attackers and defenders : the 'final stand' of the 4 hrs period again provides for many many tactical moves. Some can be impromptu, reacting to the 'end game' itself. Others will need to be pre-planned and depend on making the right moves from the start.

All in all ; a fascinating range of choices will develop over the campaign with room for error, luck, skill and plain inspired lunacy all combining to produce the outcome :

Bring it on!
-1 : Move to archive.
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Haron » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:59 am

Absolutely; this brings lots of options. For instance, starting a blockade in order to get lots of fleets with danger on the waters. Oh, and what happens to the NPC tax income from the port if a blockade is successful? Does it still go to the controlling nation, or do the blockaders get it?

I ran some simplified simulations for the last four rounds of a blockade. I assume both sides have the same fleet setup. For both sides, each fleet has different strength, though.

If both sides start the last four rounds with 100 such fleets each, then the attackers have around 75% chance of winning. If both sides start with 200 such fleets each, the attackers have around 4% chance of winning. The more fleets in action, the harder to defeat the defenders, even if the attackers have the same number of fleets (and even if their fleets are slightly stronger on average). This is based on a VERY simple simulation, but the principle is correct: More fleets favor the defenders.
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Sir Henry Morgan » Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:37 pm

Question: how will other curses work for ships and fleets in a blockade, such as Bless , Royal Auxillary, Advanced Piracy, etc.?
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Captain Jack » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:06 pm

-Repair card won't affect battles. We can't possibly allow this as it would be a game changer. The only compromise I can see to this, is to allow a starting health bonus for those running Emergency Call and Royal Fleet Auxiliary, which will be added once, before battle. This could serve as defense to the damage card that are allowed.

-Advanced Piracy won't have any effect as battles that take place within the blockade will not generate any plunder/fame. Although, at the end of the battle, we can have some fame shifts based on damage conducted versus damage received.

-Bless/Drums of War will normally count.

All exceptions are on the first topic. Hopefully, I am not missing anything.

Haron, I think it will be extremely difficult to see such large scale battles, especially in the last 4 hours. Have you taken in account the most massive health bonus of the attackers at that point? Nonetheless, the metrics sound fine.

Regarding tax income, nothing of such sort can be affected. The ports are still supporting their nation, no matter what happens to the waters outside. The blockade affects naval traffic of the port, not their tax paying habits.

With foot battles/forts/whatever the land assault is, we will be able to ponder such issues. Right now, the only non-naval-traffic specific that is included in the deal, is the Enemy of the Crown case, where he will be able to use ships to attack the King influence (the one who has listed him though).

While we are on this, we could include such pacts in Diplomacy. Pacts where nations will agree on No Blockade actions for example. So instead of adding this to the Hostility law, we can have this as a pact. Pacts will be able to include a tribute so it will allow more flexibility to add such as a pact.
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Re: Port Blockades

Postby Haron » Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:16 pm

Oh, I think 300 fleets can easily take part on each side. Even I would be able to raise 30-40 fleets with some preparation, and I expect there will be more than ten defenders in a blockade, most with more fleet capacity (=captains) than I have. But of course, there will now be hundreds of fleets with danger in that port after the defenders win, which must also be taken into account. And there's the strategy of starting four Blockades with one hour intervals. That may be a fun strategy.
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