Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby DezNutz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:30 pm

Kangaroo wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:Ahoy everyone,

We do not really like the Witch Doctor gameplay, where one man sits behind his inventory and uses his voodoo at will, without anything to lose.

This is an old issue. First serious reference dates 2 years ago @ viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1623

A suggestion that attempted to control the problem, came 2 months later than the post above:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1747&p=20315#p20315

None was approved or implemented though. The key reason is that probably none of the ideas was good enough.

This time, we need to approach the case differently as this is something that expands to more cases. Ships is not the issue. Risk is the issue. There needs to always be some risk to everyone.


just a reminder, the OP isn't simply about the effects of Voodoo on PVP, it's primarily about the use of voodoo without risk.



Yes, thank you. A suggestion was made to phase out some of this voodoo to game features. An example was provided and discussed. You don't fix problems by making a suggestion and don't discuss the details.

The simplest solution to counter riskless voodoo is to eliminate certain voodoo outright, phase out certain voodoo with the effects being replaced by game fucntions, and creating new voodoo (to replace the eliminate and phased out voodoo) that buffs existing and new features that doesn't allow riskless PvP voodoo casting.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby DezNutz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:49 pm

PFH wrote:
Spoiler: show
The problem isn't truly the voodoo itself, Grimlock. The problem is the near risk-free factors that play along with using voodoo only.

Maybe time for some new voodoo abilities to arise? Same with ship abilities and crew abilities.

Examples of voodoo abilities:

-Escalate, or to amplify the damages of a card, but also increasing cost of the card cast.

-Magnetism, or attraction of incoming curses.

-Reflection, or to rebound damages to opposing caster.

-Dissipation, or the cancelling of a cast completely.

-Backfire, or to immediately hit back with slightly less power.

Examples of ship abilities and crew abilities:

-Battle Cry, or improved morality of crew and improved accuracy.

-Smoke Powder, or cannon gunpowder leaves a dense fog increasing chances of missed shots from opposing ships, but also decreasing accuracy slightly.

-Swivel Shots, or pointed cannon rounds that have increased accuracy, but decreased damage.

-Buckshots, or rounds that do low damage to ships, but high damage to the crew.

-Oiled rounds, or flaming round shots that have a risk of catching the ship of fire, but give a risk to the opposing ship to catch aflame when hit by these rounds.

-Ulfberht sabers, or advanced swords for the crew, increasing damage of crew.

-Grappling hooks, or where the crew boards the opposing ship's crew and fights on their decks. Chance to plunder ship is increased.

-Rifled muskets, or rifles given to certain crew that increase accuracy, but decrease reload time to re-fire.

Just a few examples I wrote about in my notes a while back.


None of that alleviates the issue. The only way to alleviate this is to move the voodoo functions to game features that require the player to take risks and make voodoo more buff oriented.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby PFH » Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:59 pm

DezNutz wrote:
PFH wrote:
Spoiler: show
The problem isn't truly the voodoo itself, Grimlock. The problem is the near risk-free factors that play along with using voodoo only.

Maybe time for some new voodoo abilities to arise? Same with ship abilities and crew abilities.

Examples of voodoo abilities:

-Escalate, or to amplify the damages of a card, but also increasing cost of the card cast.

-Magnetism, or attraction of incoming curses.

-Reflection, or to rebound damages to opposing caster.

-Dissipation, or the cancelling of a cast completely.

-Backfire, or to immediately hit back with slightly less power.

Examples of ship abilities and crew abilities:

-Battle Cry, or improved morality of crew and improved accuracy.

-Smoke Powder, or cannon gunpowder leaves a dense fog increasing chances of missed shots from opposing ships, but also decreasing accuracy slightly.

-Swivel Shots, or pointed cannon rounds that have increased accuracy, but decreased damage.

-Buckshots, or rounds that do low damage to ships, but high damage to the crew.

-Oiled rounds, or flaming round shots that have a risk of catching the ship of fire, but give a risk to the opposing ship to catch aflame when hit by these rounds.

-Ulfberht sabers, or advanced swords for the crew, increasing damage of crew.

-Grappling hooks, or where the crew boards the opposing ship's crew and fights on their decks. Chance to plunder ship is increased.

-Rifled muskets, or rifles given to certain crew that increase accuracy, but decrease reload time to re-fire.

Just a few examples I wrote about in my notes a while back.


None of that alleviates the issue. The only way to alleviate this is to move the voodoo functions to game features that require the player to take risks and make voodoo more buff oriented.



"-Escalate, or to amplify the damages of a card, but also increasing cost of the card cast.

-Magnetism, or attraction of incoming curses.

-Reflection, or to rebound damages to opposing caster.

-Dissipation, or the cancelling of a cast completely.

-Backfire, or to immediately hit back with slightly less power."

I have these abilities to make the damages of being a witch doctor more risky, as they will smack the doctor back with some of these abilities.

You can manipulate these abilities to make the doctor target themselves. Magnetism on themselves to make the curses hit themselves instead, backfire on yourself, and reflection on them and you to cancel voodoo toward you and to stop them from cleaning themselves, rendering voodoo useless.

Just a few ideas.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Grimrock Litless » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:03 pm

DezNutz wrote:
Kangaroo wrote:
Captain Jack wrote:Ahoy everyone,

We do not really like the Witch Doctor gameplay, where one man sits behind his inventory and uses his voodoo at will, without anything to lose.

This is an old issue. First serious reference dates 2 years ago @ viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1623

A suggestion that attempted to control the problem, came 2 months later than the post above:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=1747&p=20315#p20315

None was approved or implemented though. The key reason is that probably none of the ideas was good enough.

This time, we need to approach the case differently as this is something that expands to more cases. Ships is not the issue. Risk is the issue. There needs to always be some risk to everyone.


just a reminder, the OP isn't simply about the effects of Voodoo on PVP, it's primarily about the use of voodoo without risk.



Yes, thank you. A suggestion was made to phase out some of this voodoo to game features. An example was provided and discussed. You don't fix problems by making a suggestion and don't discuss the details.

The simplest solution to counter riskless voodoo is to eliminate certain voodoo outright, phase out certain voodoo with the effects being replaced by game fucntions, and creating new voodoo (to replace the eliminate and phased out voodoo) that buffs existing and new features that doesn't allow riskless PvP voodoo casting.


There is actually 2 forum post where I mentioned the same idea you are suggesting right here. Which is to remove some of the voodoo and make them into ingame action that is costly, need the use of ships, etc, there is many times where I realize that people basically just ignore what I say. *Cries in corner*
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby DezNutz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:48 pm

PFH wrote:
DezNutz wrote:
PFH wrote:
Spoiler: show
The problem isn't truly the voodoo itself, Grimlock. The problem is the near risk-free factors that play along with using voodoo only.

Maybe time for some new voodoo abilities to arise? Same with ship abilities and crew abilities.

Examples of voodoo abilities:

-Escalate, or to amplify the damages of a card, but also increasing cost of the card cast.

-Magnetism, or attraction of incoming curses.

-Reflection, or to rebound damages to opposing caster.

-Dissipation, or the cancelling of a cast completely.

-Backfire, or to immediately hit back with slightly less power.

Examples of ship abilities and crew abilities:

-Battle Cry, or improved morality of crew and improved accuracy.

-Smoke Powder, or cannon gunpowder leaves a dense fog increasing chances of missed shots from opposing ships, but also decreasing accuracy slightly.

-Swivel Shots, or pointed cannon rounds that have increased accuracy, but decreased damage.

-Buckshots, or rounds that do low damage to ships, but high damage to the crew.

-Oiled rounds, or flaming round shots that have a risk of catching the ship of fire, but give a risk to the opposing ship to catch aflame when hit by these rounds.

-Ulfberht sabers, or advanced swords for the crew, increasing damage of crew.

-Grappling hooks, or where the crew boards the opposing ship's crew and fights on their decks. Chance to plunder ship is increased.

-Rifled muskets, or rifles given to certain crew that increase accuracy, but decrease reload time to re-fire.

Just a few examples I wrote about in my notes a while back.


None of that alleviates the issue. The only way to alleviate this is to move the voodoo functions to game features that require the player to take risks and make voodoo more buff oriented.



"-Escalate, or to amplify the damages of a card, but also increasing cost of the card cast.

-Magnetism, or attraction of incoming curses.

-Reflection, or to rebound damages to opposing caster.

-Dissipation, or the cancelling of a cast completely.

-Backfire, or to immediately hit back with slightly less power."

I have these abilities to make the damages of being a witch doctor more risky, as they will smack the doctor back with some of these abilities.

You can manipulate these abilities to make the doctor target themselves. Magnetism on themselves to make the curses hit themselves instead, backfire on yourself, and reflection on them and you to cancel voodoo toward you and to stop them from cleaning themselves, rendering voodoo useless.

Just a few ideas.


A witch doctor is usually someone who has no ships or very few and primarily works casting voodoo on others. Most voodoo is ship related, how would that be detrimental to someone who has few or no ships and just casts voodoo.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Maha » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:32 pm

to discourage a shipless voodoo caster the voodoo cards needed to cast a singe voodoo could double or triple when certain conditions aren't met.
as conditions i would suggest

a total amount of guns and crew sailing the sees that is equivalent to 3 fleets of 3 frigates & 2 cutters each when those are fully manned and outfitted is the norm and standard. (crew 1500 or more, guns 336 or more)
when crew and gun amount drop below this norm than 2 cards are needed to cast a single voodoo
when crew and guns drop below 2 frig/cutter fleets (in numbers) than 3 cards are needed
When crew and guns drop below 1 such a fleet than 4 cards are needed for a single cast

this measure only takes effect after 1000 turns are used or a month after the player started to play.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Vane » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:36 pm

I sail one fleet.. if that were to happen there goes "real" piracy.

Only realistic solution is to change voodoo effects into game mechanics that generate the same or similar.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby DezNutz » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:39 pm

Charles Vane wrote:I sail one fleet.. if that were to happen there goes "real" piracy.

Only realistic solution is to change voodoo effects into game mechanics that generate the same or similar.


It's only been said a dozen times before between you and myself, but it bares repeating.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Captain Jack » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm

I have read some nice replies here (Who is this Broom? 12 posts and nice post). I realize how dearly, some of you, desire battle upgrades. We will press ourselves to deliver faster on this part. I was happy to read solutions and problem identifications. We will keep all of them in mind, or try to at least as the information already posted is plentiful.

Therefore, let's limit the initial scope; let's nail the exact problem we want to solve in priority. Many problems exist and this is why we need to prioritize. One step at a time.

Let's forget about voodoo and ships and focus to what I call toxic gameplay. I have seen examples of such in the past. Such examples, most commonly end with one of the players abandoning the game. Obviously, this is our main issue here; we do not want players to leave, especially veterans.

We mostly care for the gameplay part here as people might leave for a gazillion of reasons. They will be replenished anyway (hey, have you seen Broom's post btw? :o: ) sooner or later by fresh blood. We cannot really control the rest of the reasons so let's focus to what we can control.

Here are two parts of the game that currently allow toxic gameplay:

1)Ability to indefinitely attack someone through any way
You need to understand, in case you are not yet aware, that as long as you are active, you can be a real pain to anyone if you know what to do. Sure you can be limited and kept at bay but for how long one will lose his daily time to do this?

The number #1 way to attack is VOODOO. Cheap voodoo can be very annoying which gives the aggressor the upper hand. So, if someone wants to grief someone, he cans. That's something that should stop.

2)Frequent grieving between same enemies
Let's assume that there are two players hating each other. They end up fighting frequently. At some point, it is only natural that at least one of the side gets tired of this. Still, there is no real way out. Even if you fix #1 and people are not able to attack indefinitely each other, you will still not solve this part. Frequent strife against the same person can be toxic as well.

We need to be realistic though and acknowledge that both indefinitely and frequent attacks are rare.

What is not rare though, is the no-risk gameplay which if fixed, can further limit the above scenarios. The no-risk gameplay also creates frustration as those running on risk, are often discouraged.

To be fair, the obvious no-risk gameplay is not so right. Someone running on risk, has greater returns and accumulates more wealth without strife. Someone running at no risk, has less returns and he needs to create strife in order to get more. The latest action alone, is very hard indeed so its not really an issue. What is an issue, at those that sit on no risk but in the same time they do not seek to accumulate wealth but instead, they seek to create strife for other reasons.

It is pretty hard though to even call them out for this, as they obviously have a reason for doing so. I have not brought this discussion up to blame anyone. Everyone should be able to play as he can and remember that every player has his style which is usually relative to the time he has at hand.

What we want to do here, as devs, is to help everyone, including Witch Doctors. Create the game in a way that all sides will have more options. Options were risk will be probably easier to manage, therefore it will worth the trouble.

Right now, the top stake in wars, are ships. So what players do, they get rid of ships when things get troublesome. This is something we could improve.

Lately, we have updated the Sink Chances. We have gave scraps from each level lost. In fact, we have reduced ships risk and increased profit from the other players losses. This made ships risk management easier.

Perhaps the next step forward, is to add more risk that derives from ships. This could be voodoo cards inventory being vulnerable to attacks. Here is the idea I sketched earlier with more details (just an idea):

New Feature: Witch Doctor Hunting
Via Plunder Page

Rules:
-Consume X turns for a Y chance to steal a voodoo card from target enemy.
-Use Power index of ships value to determine Y

For Power index of 45M or more -> Y is 0%
For Power index of 1M or less -> Y is 100%

-Use daily attempts to define X

Minimum 6 turns per attempt.
For every attempt, increase X by 4.

(Sample proposal, more rules can be used to define X,Y,rarity,etc)

New ability: Voodoo Card Pillaging
via PvP Battles

Rules:
-Whenever a fleet wins a battle, it has a chance to steal a voodoo card.

The chance can be relative to past successes or own fleet size (the more ships you got, the better) or enemy fleet size or a combination of these, etc.

Or we could add this as a Ship Ability and trigger it on ship win rather on fleet win.


Mainly, we are looking for ideas to increase risk beyond the traditional scope of damage via voodoo to everything and damage from ships to ships.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

I do not recall ever naming Hideouts as invincible. Anyway though, I was not referring to buildings destruction. I said pillaging and I mostly had resources in mind. Still, to be honest, hideouts are not designed for raids. We could create another facility for such usage and most probably, such facilities should be either owned by guilds (a good way to increase guild cooperation) or nations. They can be strongholds/castles/keeps and will be port based of course. Let me not continue this as I will step completely off topic and I have already written a ton.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Captain Jack » Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:13 pm

I felt the need to underline this in a separate post; the ideas above are just to understand what we are after. Not a proposition. Obviously, there are a lot of factors to keep in mind (ie Pirate style) therefore any solution should respect historic truth.
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