[Resolved] Call Leviathan tweak

[Mordag]

I have to say I find myself in agreement with Captain Jack about nerfing 100% - in theory. If the game decides tomorrow to let us gain attributes for our ships through battles, I would be very peeved if 1 year later they decide all those attributes gained won't matter anymore. I don't see how Call Leviathan falls into that category though. Levis do not weaken a ship so that a smaller player has a chance of winning, Levis destroy a ship without the weaker player having to work at all. In my first day of play I could have sunk a sotl or a mow belonging to the strongest player in game just to try out the cards to see how they work, not because I had something against someone or I felt threatened by strong players. I actually thought of trying since I didn't believe what I read in voodoo encyclopedia, it didn't make sense to me that a game would totally disregard strength other players worked on. If we assume that taking out the Levi is nerfing, I have a question: what do you call it when a player tries to build a strong character for months or years and a newbie like me shows up and destroys it all for no reason? I can see a card that temporarily increases the level or the attributes of your ship, or weakens those of your enemy, as long as the key word is temporarily and temporary means for a very short time. This is not sour grapes - although I am a new player, I do have some Levis. Nor did I stop myself from using them because I am such a nice and responsible player. I didn't use them because the guild I joined asked me not to and I wanted to give the guild thing a chance more than I wanted to try the Levis. By all means, give weaker players a chance to defend themselves, I am all for it. Levis though totally disregard the work a player puts into the game and gives all the advantage to those who never bother to play it as it was meant to. Assuming of course the game is meant to be competitive. I joined the game more for the promise of plunder and wars than trade, I happen to like ships and competitive games. Being able to win wars only because I could spend a few dollars doesn't do it for me - I am willing to spend a few dollars because I don't have the patience to start with a howker, not because I feel some weird need to show others that I can afford it. I also happen to believe that people who work to make a game enjoyable for me should be able to make a living, so I am ok with paying for my entertainment. However, if spending a few dollars takes away all competitiveness, I'll probably be looking for something else next week. I didn't play many games, I tend to stick with one, but I never saw a game where the admin was as good as here: quick responses, everything in the open. The admin convinced me to give the game a try and I like most of the features, although I am hoping for improvement in some areas. Levis do not fall into "like" category for me. Please allow us to work to make our ships stronger, don't just hand out on a plate. I'd rather wait 1 year to payback an attack than work to build a character whose strength is meaningless. Because of some of the cards, the question of why arises: why bother to build a strong ship a newbie can destroy in 2 minutes, why bother building a great trade that can disappear in less than 24 hours, why bother figuring out the game knowing that a handful of voodoo cards is enough? I like the voodoo cards, but it seems to me someone went a bit overboard and replaced character building with cards. I suppose that works too for some, but I would like to see a more realistic competition and to be given the chance to work on making my character better. I am one of the 18 players Captain Jack mentioned - if the game takes out the Levis tomorrow, I promise I will not even ask for a replacement, I will just be happy to be able to really start building my character.

I apologize to Xep for disregarding the requested format of pros and cons, but I think this conversation is very important to the game. I might be wrong in my opinion about Levis, but I think they at least deserve an in-dept discussion since so many players have something to say about it.

[Xepshunall]

Thanks, Mordag!
# Character Name Guild Fame
18 United States of America [King] Mordag (#30926) ATC 26,521,634

I don't know if you're playing this game the way you are to make a point about how easy it is to buy the top spot. Your ID number says it all. I've already tried making that point but it doesn't seem to really matter to the one who should care. It works in his favor as long as the rest of the players don't see the fame of players like us as valid. I know that my fame comes from the same source as that of the non-paying players but that doesn't make me the fourth best player. I could never have made it to the point that I'm at if it weren't for the contents of my wallet. As such, I'm not deserving of the name "Champion" if I happen to be the most famous at the end of this server. For that reason, I vow to reduce my fame with repeated name changes or to simply stop playing so some other paying player can claim the title.

You're the second player, in the history of my participation, who was able to make my point better than I did. This game lacks reward for competition. Maybe if Mindbar and Countercurse were common but had a high turn cost, much of this would be academic. It is foolish to say that if you don't want to be destroyed by Leviathan then you should spend all of your hard-earned money to buy enough voodoo to guarantee that a determined player or group of players would have to do the same if he/they want your destruction bad enough. We all know that "money makes the game go around" but it has been made abundantly clear here that stupidity makes the truth come out.

(IN THE INTEREST OF CLARITY, I FEEL THE NEED TO INCLUDE THE ONE TRUE DEFINITION OF STUPIDITY)


stu·pid·i·ty
[stoo-pid-i-tee]
noun, plural stu·pid·i·ties for 2.
1. mental laziness.

[Sir Henry Morgan]

Well put, Mordag. I follow your lead - the Call Leviathan Cards were to disappear tomorrow, I wouldn't ask for replacements, either. I've seen more heartache and fun sucked out of this game from excessive use and abuse of the card than all the pros it offers to "weaker" players.

In theory, the card is supposed to work be an equalizer, more of a defensive weapon to weaken an opponent. In some cases, it has been used as such. However, in reality, it has turned into an offensive weapon to totally destroy an opponent. This has turned the Leviathan into a game destroyer for several people, to the point they leave after they have watched months of work disappear in a few hours.

I don't see the fun or the balance in that.

[Random pandah]

Well put, Mordag. I follow your lead - the Call Leviathan Cards were to disappear tomorrow, I wouldn't ask for replacements, either. I've seen more heartache and fun sucked out of this game from excessive use and abuse of the card than all the pros it offers to "weaker" players.

In theory, the card is supposed to work be an equalizer, more of a defensive weapon to weaken an opponent. In some cases, it has been used as such. However, in reality, it has turned into an offensive weapon to totally destroy an opponent. This has turned the Leviathan into a game destroyer for several people, to the point they leave after they have watched months of work disappear in a few hours.

I don't see the fun or the balance in that.

hours...mintutes more like

[Captain dungeness]

I'm really happy Captain Jack is able to respond with so much detail to requests like this. Thanks Captain Jack! I don't agree with never nerfing but Pirates Glory has been a really fun game to play and watch grow so maybe I'm totally wrong.

I have one point to make and one related proposal but if the devs don't agree then I don't mind.

--> Expedition Journey does not equal Call Leviathan. There is 1 difference: you can't use an expedition journey to create a level 1 Ship of the Line. You must use 144 turns to build the level 1 ship but Call Leviathan can destroy a level 1 Ship of the Line at no additional turn cost. Call Leviathan is at least 144 turns more powerful plus all the Master Craftsmanship cards it destroys.

--> If Call Leviathan could not sink a level 1 ship then it would be equal in power to an Expedition Journey.

-Captain D

[Random pandah]

that is a point ive never thought of, u creative pile of dung

[Captain Jack]

Since the topic author is fine with derailing the topic , I will do so
I will unfold more of our reservations on changing this card.

I will list all the major problems this card creates, for the majority of the posters here. I categorized them in 3 general statements. Feel free to quote me back and criticize or suggest alternatives. Please avoid any trolling, focus on the issue at hand.

Also note that in our developing philosophy (we have been developing games for many years now) we are always keen to change something when the majority requests it. The majority always knows better than the best game developer. But before convincing your friends to support such a nerf, please take our points as I list them.

1) A single leviathan card can cost millions of gold damage for a player
Let's see in which cases this is true:
When a player holds a Ship of the Line or a Man of War. Especially a high level one.

Dev's approach:
a)To be able to hold such a ship, you are an advanced player. It matters not to us if you have advanced to this point through credits or time or both. For us, you are an advanced player once you get to own a Ship of the line. It is true that if you use NO credits, you will need about 3 months to do so.
b)Ship of the line (and man o war) is the strongest ship in the game. It is a game changer. The strongest fleet is a game changer. The strongest fleet is a tremendous advantage. This comes with the risky cost that this card represents. Back in time, only nations were able to hold Ship of the Lines and still only few of them could. This, alongside with the frustration that ownership of many ships may cause in the long time, are the basis of our philosophy to discourage the usage of huge ship counts by each player. This is an everlasting attempt since the first days of the game.

So, why the developers should after all find it problematic if an advanced player receives massive damage from this card? It won't affect game balance. It won't even discourage the player from playing; in contrary it will keep him more engaged (see MonkeyDLuffy example - he wasn't that active before the Leviathan incident, right? I am only assuming this from his posting in the forums and my apologies towards the player for using him as an example)

Please take the point seriously in consideration as this is the top argument for us. I can understand momentary furstration. However, I see the picture a little different.

2)Some other player can virtually destroy all my work

Yes, this is totally true. And he can do this with multiple ways. That player might even use his credits to do this. In this sense, you can see a 1year old player losing to a 1month player. It is totally true.

Dev's Approach:
a)We do not separate players on time joined. We want to offer the player who joins now the tools to be competitive against a player who plays since the server start. Surely, credits will play a great role for someone beginning now. But other factors can play a huge role, such as friends and friendly voodoo. Or when we speak of an advanced player who has been destroyed, then the credits are hardly needed at all.

b)This is what we usually call War Chest. A player can be destroyed through various ways (not just leviathan) in like 24 hours. Especially if the player is inexperienced and plays well over capacity. Once destroyed, the player can be quite deadly by just using portions of his war chest and this can continue well beyond a time that the offending player can keep 24/7 defense. This has happened in the past and it has happened in a time where there were adequate resources for a proper warchest. Now, at least 3 prominent ways to keep a warchest exists, each better than another, and they all can reassure you will be left with fuel to fight if need be if you were cautious enough to create it, when you were in peace time.

So, why the devs should find it problematic that you can be destroyed? Is it something bad? Are there no tools to help you in this case? Does it ruins your fun? This is not a social game where you compete for the highest score. This is a domination game and you all know it fully well. More so, why we should isolate Call Leviathan as the evil?

Please again, think carefully our point and respond directly to the point. All my remarks are serious questions we ask themselves, I am not trying to provoke anybody. I am explaining these because written speech differs from spoken and misunderstandings may occur.

3)This card hinders my ability to create a strong ship.

This is the statement that makes us uneasy. What Captain Dungeness states is testing our patience for a tweak. We do find the request to protect a master crafted ship from sinking completely like a fair one.

It has some problems though and it involves a change back in time:

0.5.1: The cracken (Call Leviathan) can now target even the last ship of a player and even sink it.

This seems to be the first update we issued on a card, in the same day we released the voodoo system (I could not recall when but this is what the changelog says).

A ship of the line level 1 can be very destructive with a single voodoo card; Hostile Natives. Right now, the only countermeasure to this, is Call Leviathan. Right now there is an open hole with the restriction we have put on Man of War yesterday, but we are ready to follow Black Sparrow's suggested change with time protection when some player attempts it.

Perhaps we could use the same suggestion eventually for all ships. Here is his suggestion in case you missed it (do note, we used John Rackham's suggestion instead as it was faster to implement and easier to understand):

I am suggesting something like a 24hour protection once it reaches level 1 by a leviathan which will be lifted the exact moment it is upgraded again (or when 24hours pass of course, which is first).

In regards as to why we find fair to protect a master craftmanship ship, I got no exact answer. Especially by the time it is not lost completely but can be found with Tidal wave (by some lucky player), someone could say why bother. Probably because it is too much to just lose your master crafted ships while you sleep -and this is the most likely scenario-

However, judging from the discussions at other topics, I am unsure whether the supporters of a nerf to Call Leviathan would be happy with this step. For example, who finds this, as a step towards the right direction? How long will it be, before you come with ideas and proposals on a new nerf for the card?

Removing it completely is not a viable option. We are discussing a nerf on it (like some limits) and we are willing to forwards them if the playerbase finds this as good idea, after all. However we do not want to remove it. We want to avoid this. Such a dire change is against our nerf philosophy.

So just read all my 3 posts to get a complete idea on what we think on this card and let us know. Discussion on the subject seems fruitful.

[Mordag]

Ship of the line (and man o war) is the strongest ship in the game. It is a game changer. The strongest fleet is a game changer. The strongest fleet is a tremendous advantage. This comes with the risky cost that this card represents. Back in time, only nations were able to hold Ship of the Lines and still only few of them could. This, alongside with the frustration that ownership of many ships may cause in the long time, are the basis of our philosophy to discourage the usage of huge ship counts by each player. This is an everlasting attempt since the first days of the game.

A ship of the line level 1 can be very destructive with a single voodoo card; Hostile Natives. Right now, the only countermeasure to this, is Call Leviathan. Right now there is an open hole with the restriction we have put on Man of War yesterday, but we are ready to follow Black Sparrow's suggested change with time protection when some player attempts it.

A SOTL level 1 can be destroyed with Hostile Natives, but the enemy would have to have at least 1 ship to do it and that makes it a fair shot in my book - it would be the same with no voodoo used if said SOTL is on plunder screen already.

If the devs philosophy is to discourage usage of huge ship counts by each player, I think a different solution would work much better. I don't see what can be done about the trading fleets, but as far as war fleets are concerned you could let us to gain some kind of extra attributes through battles. It could be crew experience, making danger points influential in battles, or just making a certain amount of battles equal to a MC card. In that case players will be forced to work on the main war fleet rather than build multiples. If Leviathan becomes a card that weakens only instead of destroying, I think advanced players will have an added incentive to make 1 fleet stronger instead of buying ship after ship. The gain through battles should be unlimited though, otherwise we're back to ship buying soon enough. Strength of ships gained through battles would have an added benefit: an enemy can see 5 level 10 SOTL, but would have no way to know how strong they are, hence making the outcome of the battle unknown.

My biggest issue with Levis is that it seems to encourage lazy players instead of rewarding those who are competitive - building 2 extra fleets of SOTL is not that difficult and would assure that no single player can destroy all your war ships through Levis. As I mentioned before, giving the weaker player a chance to defend him/herself is fine, taking away the incentive to become stronger doesn't make much sense to me personally. After all a weak player has the same access to a guild and making friends as a strong one has, nobody told me I couldn't make friends or join a guild when I joined the game. Many of the advanced players in game are quick with advice and help offers, and when Pirate Code is implemented they might become even quicker. Measures that would make guilds more relevant will also insure that new players get help and good advice, what guild leader doesn't want all members to become strong?

[Captain dungeness]

Captain Jack, you rock! I'm impressed with how quickly you respond and the thoroughness of your post. We're spoiled to have such an open discussion with the game developers!

What Captain Dungeness states is testing our patience for a tweak. We do find the request to protect a master crafted ship from sinking completely like a fair one.

I don't entirely understand this sentence. I hope I didn't anger your team...

I agree with your post on many things. SotLs are for advanced players and holding onto them is HARD (especially 60 point ones). I think most players are used to games that are not as hard to hold onto your assets. Of course it's entirely up to the game's designers how difficult it is to hold onto your ships but judging by the response of many players it seems many people believe it is too hard in regards to call leviathan and SotLs. I appreciate your resolve to follow your team's game design philosophy and your reasoning is sound but when the feeling of loss is so significant as to make players quit I think it might be hurting the game.

I believe making the card not usable on level 1 ships would reduce the overwhelming feeling of loss while still allowing the card to act as you described: it can still weaken a 60 point fleet enough to be beaten and it can still afflict a MASSIVE amount of damage. I don't see any advantage in using call leviathan on a player's last remaining ship. Once Hideouts are added I would expect a player taking a break from the game would hide their last ship in drydock so it can't get Leviathan-ed anyway.

I'm cool with whatever you decide to do with the card.
-Captain D

[Xepshunall]

I can't believe that when I come up with a great solution, somehow it never reaches the eyes of Admin.

The card should not be allowed in the voodoo packs. (No change to the card)
The card should not be able to be duplicated. (No change to the card)
The card should not be allowed in the auction. (No change to the card)

I have already pointed out that the Leviathan should not be part of the voodoo packs. After this topic has received your helpful input, I know to mention that it should also not be allowed to be duplicated. It should be disallowed in the auction as was mentioned here by one of the more complete-thinking posters. I could accept it's presence more readily if it were only usable by the player who got it by pure chance. That would limit it sufficiently to create a safety barrier and all could trust that 10 of them in one place would be an extreme rarity rather than just the results of some preparedness or defensive measures.

I can accept this all being applied to the Expedition Journey also due to its equal-but-opposite relation to Call Leviathan.

Somehow, this went completely ignored. And like the others that stated that they wouldn't need their Leviathans replaced with anything if all were removed from the game, I feel this way too. I will not show anyone the error of insufficient moderation of this card if a fair solution is made. If anyone sees a flaw in the suggestion I make here then please point it out to me. But don't be indirect. Say it straight.

Of course we learned that Expedition Journey and Call Leviathan are not truly "equal but opposite" thanks to the great mind of Captain Dungeness. Not that I agree with Captain Dungeness on everything. The main difference is that when the developer is wrong, he's wrong no matter how true it is that he owns the rights to the game.

The majority always knows better than the best game developer. But before convincing your friends to support such a nerf, please take our points as I list them.

If you put the question to all of the players, what way do you think the vote would go? Keep it or kill it? The above mentioned solution is an excellent compromise in the event that the vote should go for killing it. Care to put it to a vote? If it went to a vote, the vote would be invalid if it were offered only to known forum participants and those that they decided to tell. Especially if they asked the player's opinion before deciding whether to tell them of the vote. For this reason, a game-wide announcement with a link is the only fair way to initiate a vote. And nothing discreet.