Plunder Formula tweak discussion

[Captain Jack]

Following the latest discussion on Plunder Formula (here), here we come again with a new discussion on how plunder should work.

Current GC Plunder formula:

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The loser must also pay a ransom equal to the 10% value of the base ship price that was last-positioned in the fleet that lost the battle PLUS a random number between 1% to 5% of his treasury at hand. (There is a limit of 250 000 max gold coins per plunder).


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COMMON PARTS:

1.
Defender loses Gold Coins Bounty
Attacker Earns Gold Coins bounty + Piracy Bonus + Sink Chance Bonus Plunder

2.

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Advanced Piracy voodoo card awards an extra 3% per card, paid by the game


3.

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Piracy
Each level gives bonus income (+5k per plunder or +3.5k per skirmish) per level from any successful attack (not defend). The extra funds are paid by the game (not the player who lost).


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PROPOSAL A:

New GC Plunder Formula

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Gold Coins Bounty is equal to:  10% value of the base ship price that was last-positioned in the fleet that lost the battle + A random number between 3% to 7% of the loser's treasure at hand
Max Gold Coins Bounty is equal to 150k


Current Max is 250k + 25k (Advanced piracy) + Piracy Bonus (70k at lvl 20) = 345k
Proposed Max is 150k + 37.5k(Advanced Piracy) + Sink chance bonus plunder (up to 1.5M) + 100k (Piracy) = 287.5k +whatever from sink chance

I hope that it is obvious that the proposed formula is a lot better for attackers, even if the total earn is lower right now. First, we need to consider that Piracy tech came in order to allow this kind of change in the future. Also, you need to consider the higher % used that will return higher plunders on avg.

For defenders, the cost of defending will rise but the quality of defending will be better.

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PROPOSAL B:

Gold Coins formula remains as it is.

A new Technology:

Every level decreases max Gold Coins bounty per attack by 5k (Max 100,000 - So Max Gold coins bounty can go as low as 150k)

Another new Technology:

Every level increases max random amount percentage from the victim's treasury at hand by 0.1% (Max 2% - So, 1%~5% can become at best 3%-7% at lvl 20)


This way:
-We keep almost all new proposed buffs for attackers plus original great hand, except the random amount from hand which will need a technology to improve.
-More strategic options for everyone involved that will allow more playing styles by default (ie, a player with 200 ships will have to choose what to do; expand with more captains/ships or invest in greater safety?)


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OTHER IDEAS:

1.Skirmishing costs no turns.

2.Attackers (if winners) plunder ships that head to sea bottom (50% chance)


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We should take in mind Sink Chance plunder that will soon be added ( viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2547&p=31875#p31875 )

This is a discussion.
We might come with more proposals. Feel free to add your own and comment on this one so we can come to a solutions that works for everything and everyone. If we come to a good solution, we will make it a suggestion to vote.

[Grimrock Litless]

I am sure pirate will like this one, but tho its making the game unbalanced and not everyone can affort to really stop a pirate because of their nothing much to lose stategy. I hope a update to merchants will be coming. I know that merchants have planty of voodoo for them to use, east & west. But not really a lot of defence voodoo and such.

[Admiral Nelson]

I am sure pirate will like this one, but tho its making the game unbalanced and not everyone can affort to really stop a pirate because of their nothing much to lose stategy. I hope a update to merchants will be coming. I know that merchants have planty of voodoo for them to use, east & west. But not really a lot of defence voodoo and such.

Ye' seem to be forgetting, ye wally-wag that we do have much to lose. Ye just not know what.

[Grimrock Litless]

Because the amount have been raised to 3 to 7%, it means short and fast attackes are worth more then a continues attack as target will have less gold by then, but surely even so, only the limit of gold earned per attack is lower, to me, pirates have a easier way to get gold then anything if u ask me.

[Grimrock Litless]

I am sure pirate will like this one, but tho its making the game unbalanced and not everyone can affort to really stop a pirate because of their nothing much to lose stategy. I hope a update to merchants will be coming. I know that merchants have planty of voodoo for them to use, east & west. But not really a lot of defence voodoo and such.

Ye' seem to be forgetting, ye wally-wag that we do have much to lose. Ye just not know what.

And that be?
You have only a few fleet and such.
And not everyone are/is ar spender and they dont have the voodoo inventory to beat such.

[Haron]

Hmm, much to comment here. So, we have:

1) Amount of treasury lost increased from 1-5 pst to 3-7 pst
2) Advanced piracy cards increased from +2 pst to +3 pst
3) Advanced piracy cards take money from the game, not the target
4) "Piracy" tech is increased from 3,5k to 5k pr level, but only for plunder. Still paid by game, not target
5) A "ship sink" plunder is introduced
6) The maximum plunder is reduced from 250k to 150k

OK, these things are obviously linked, so commenting each one separately is dangerous. I think I'll try, though.

1) This is an increase from an average 3 pst to an average 5 pst of treasury. This will, I think impact the "common" types of plunder, where you plunder a target with 1M - 2M gold in treasury, with only earning gold as your goal, not stealing ships. Will it impact stealing ships? A little, I guess, since you can reduce a targets treasury down to 100k a bit faster this way. The hard part has always been to empty the last part of the treasury, though.

2) Would make this card much better, if it was not for point 3.

3) Basically makes this card useless. I would MUCH rather steal 2% from my target, than 3% from the game. Hurting my target is often more important than what I gain myself, for several reasons

4) This will make "piracy" tech useful for more people. As it were, I think maybe 4-5 people would have been able to make level 20 piracy tech worthwhile. I wish the increase would go for skirmish too, though. Making skirmish worthwhile is quite difficult as it is, for several reasons, and an increase from the piracy tech would definitely help

5) I think this will matter very little. Usually, the ships losing levels will be howkers, so the payouts will be small. Or occationally an LMM reduced from level 1 to "sunk". Still very little extra. Also, the target does not lose anything extra, it's just more gold to the attacker, and as stated, hurting the target is often more important than gaining something oneself

6) Now, this is something I would advice against. As it is now, people need to make a tradeoff: Carry lots of gold and lose lots of gold when attacked, or carry less gold but run a risk of having ships stolen. I think the balance today in this respect is relatively good. But what happens if the max payout is reduced to 150k - AND the payout is increased from an average 3% to an average 5% of the treasury? Well, today, at around 8M, you must expect to hit the "roof" of 250k. Which means that above this, you risk losing 250k each attack. At 1M, you lose around 30k only, but if you have a SoL fleet, someone may go after it. With the suggested rules? You hit the "roof" of 150 k already at 3M gold. And with 1M, you lose around 50k. This will make having 100M gold in hand a much more attractive strategy than before, at least if you're a trader in a large guild. The "insurance" you pay by carrying more gold costs you less, and since the 1M gold treasury would be drained faster with the new rules, it's also worth more. I think this would skew the balance in this tradeoff, so that the dilemma of whether or not one should carry lots of gold or little gold is no longer that much of a dilemma - if you're part of an active guild, carrying lots of gold is almost always worth it. Increasing the payout pr attack, yet reducing the "roof", essentially may make everyone carry a bunch of gold, and all attacks giving the "roof" as payouts. Sure, the payout pr attack will increase (because of the increase from 3% to 5% of treasury), so this is still an advantage for pirates and a disadvantage for traders, but I think this dilemma needs to be preserved, somehow.


Perhaps point 1 is giving too much to the pirates. I'd suggest changing point 1, so that the new payout is 2-6% rather than the proposed 3-7%, but in return, increase the max payout to 300k rather than reduce it, to preserve the dilemma of whether one should carry a lot of gold or just a little gold.

Oh, and "advanced piracy" definitely needs to take money from the target, not the game. The increase to 3% could be nice. Or this card could be changed altogether. For instance, you could keep it at 2%, but let the stacking limit be 1 + piracy tech level. That would make piracy tech more valuable, too. That would give a max of +42% payout, taken from target, with a piracy tech level of 20, and spending all of 21 Advanced Piracy cards at once.

[Shadowood]

+1 to what Haron said. Good job mate

[Slindur]

I also like what Haron is saying. I think that the other thread CJ started with sink chance is related to this. The sink chance is much better for traders and this (I believe) is aimed more for pirates. The major thing that I agree with Haron is that the total gold possible to be taken is too low at 150K, especially with the sink chance changes. This is clearly not in favor of the pirates/attackers for the possible take to drop 40%.

I know that it would not impact a majority of the attacks that are taken, but I did have 2-3 attacks in the last couple of days that netted me 250K each, which is why I attacked the target. So, if this was implemented, my take would have dropped from 750K to 450K or 500K to 300K. That is a very significant decrease and unbalances this towards traders. If you look at this and the sink chance changes, it would be best for traders to just carry a lot of gold. They are not in as much danger to lose ships levels or ships with high gold on hand, and they would lose some gold to traders, but not as much with the current system.

In summary, the addition of a higher percent than randomly 1-5 is good, but lowing the total possible gold from 250K to 150K is very bad for pirates and is unbalancing this change (when taken by itself) and the change with sink chance. The 25-50% chance of getting the gold from the level drop would help that some, but it would be nowhere near drop for the total possible gold lost/taken.

(This is somewhat off topic, but it does add to the rationale a little, so skip it if you want. In history, if you won a battle, you took whatever you wanted, including the ship, cargo, and remaining crew as a pirate. While I am not arguing for that, as that would be terrible for new and older players, decreasing the amount of possible loss would go away from being accurate to the era that Avonmora is in, "the age of gunpowder.")

Slindur

[Sir Colchian Niveus]

+1 i actually love the changes, and the fact that the attacker will gain from game gold also and the fact that the maximum gold you can get from an attack is actually reduced but also kept the same at the same time will minimize the hate we see in Avonmora.

[Vane]

+1 to CJ's formula and here is my reasoning: A happy and fat merchant provides more gold for and better targets for a pirate.

Yes the gold cap would drop to 150k, however look at it this way, with this reduction merchants will sail more fleets and carry more gold on hand. This gives more attacks to a pirate during a raid and way more capped hits at 150k. if it remains at 250k they carry less gold and your capped attacks are fewer.

Would you rather make 150k every hit for 10-15 hits or 250k for 5 hits? Not to mention the bonuses of game generated gold. CJ's formula is not more in favor of either side so much as it is a bonus to both.

This is from a privateers perspective.