Ship Cargo value

[Captain Jack]

John Rackham has brought up a very important issue. It is truth that it has crossed our mind so once I saw the same matter brought into surface by a notorious player, I thought to grab the opportunity.

Here is John Rackham's post:
viewtopic.php?p=1537#p1537

I think that it would be best to define the new cargo holds as a whole. It is a good time to do this. Sale value of a ship is still at 100% so this means that everyone will be able to reorder his fleets based on new directives, in just a few days.

I will allow 24-48hours as an initial period where every player can contribute generally on how the cargo holds should be restructured in general. Then we will skip right through to specific proposals from the playerbase. We will help you filter through the best choices till we can get down to final decisions.

[John rackham]

I don't know the base speeds for all the ship types, for the ones I do I thought cargo holds could be in the region of

Cutter 21 & 23
Howker 60
Sloop 50 & 37
Large Mechantman 185 & 110
Trade Galleon 285 & 240

These figures are for full crew & minimum crew, and use the howker as a base.

With capital outlay for the ship and crewing costs factored in, I believe this gives these ships roughly the same cost to trading capacity ratio (if I've got my maths right). Ship prices could be adjusted instead of cargo space.

In line with the other proposals in the Ship Abilities thread, War versions of merchant ships would have lower capacity in return for heavier armament, and greater durability, agility etc depending on ship type. Merchant ships could optionally have similar upgrades, reducing the basic capacity somewhat. Warships could have a capacity of 10 or 20, allowing them to conduct special trading missions etc without being useful as merchant ships themselves.

[Xepshunall]

...Allow cargoes to be captured by the victor of a battle. This would be especially fun if gold were a portable commodity. it would encourage mixed warfleets of warships (if they have little cargo capacity) to fight and merchants to carry the spoils.

Wouldn't that lead to a lot of cargo being thrown overboard and polluting the oceans or would it all float and be mindlessly collected by some players' ships that were sent from one port to another with no cargo aboard? Or should we expect a voodoo card that serves as a salvage mission?

[Captain Jack]

Proposed changes:

Ship of the Line -> Reduce by 20 -> 60
Brig -> Reduce by 20 -> 50
Merchantman -> Reduce by 10 -> 90

Galleon -> Increase by 10 -> 100
Large Fluyt -> Increase by 10 -> 110
Trade Galleon -> Increase by 10 -> 150

[Captain Blue]

i think those changes should only apply by the amount of crew they have. E.G if they have full crew Ship of the line could hold full 80 cargo but if its less than half it would like 60 if its more than a half but not 100 it should be 70.

I prefer this kind of changes rather than fully changing the cargo space.

Full Crew +Half -Half
SoTL 80 70 60
Brig 70 60 50
Merchantman 100 90 80

So basically full crew = full cargo......more than half crew = -10......less than half = -20
This should changes should apply to all ship.

[Xepshunall]

If this is really going somewhere, and I hope it's not, I have a proposal.

If a ship is strictly trade then treat it that way. To know whether it is STRICTLY trade, take into account how many crew are employed and how many cannons are on board. If no cannons exist, use the space for cargo. If there aren't 250 crew running around then use the space for cargo. If the cargo numbers are based on ship size and reported weight capacity with minimal crew then a formula such as follows:

(Unused cannon slots * 2.5) +((Max Crew-Hired)/(Max Crew-15)) * Max Cargo Slots = Available Cargo Slots
(remainders dropped or rounded)

... could be employed so that a fully armed Ship of the Line with full crew isn't treated like a trade ship while it's not at war. Whereas a Ship of the Line with minimal crew has room for cargo. (much more than its rated cargo capacity) How much cargo could be carried in my empty cannon slots. My Large Merchantmen and Trade Galleons should be able to make use of these areas for transporting cargo. A Ship of the Line could benefit from this even more because it has many cannon slots that could be used for cargo in times of peace. In fact, given the investment required and the risk involved with keeping it short staffed and unarmed, 230 total cargo slots is not too much to ask.

Of course This would also increase the profitability of the Large Merchantman more than it would the Trade Galleon furthering the gap in usefulness so something would need to be done in that area. There must be a reason why Trade Galleons exist. Were they harder to sink or something? Were there ports much nearer in those days?

While I'm going on and on, Why not address ship levels? Maybe a ship built for combat could only use all of its cannon slots to move cargo if it has been leveled all of the way and a level 4 would only be able to use1/3 of its cannon slots for cargo. Likewise a typical trade ship could use 1/3 of its cargo slots for cannons at level 4 and all of those slots at level 10 at a rate of 1 cannon for 5 cargo slots. A Trade Galleon could then hold 40 cannons. The differences between cannon slots:cargo slots ratio is due to the design impracticalities If you use a cargo hold as armament area you shouldn't expect to get as many usable cannons in that space as if the ship was built for them and the space for cannons on a war ship was built for cannons so shouldn't be expected to hold much cargo. The following list shows the proposed percentages of slots that can be misused.

Level Percent
1 0
2 11.11111111
3 22.22222222
4 33.33333333
5 44.44444444
6 55.55555556
7 66.66666667
8 77.77777778
9 88.88888889
10 100

These capabilities wouldn't make them more usable than their counterparts. For example a Trade Galleon couldn't replace a Flag Galleon because its hull won't sustain a battle with a like-leveled Flag Galleon and level 10 Ships of the line are an impractical trade fleet even with 230 cargo slots. Of course there are ports with high enough profit per round trip for me to consider using Ships of the Line for trade if I could make use of those cannon slots during peace time.

[Captain Jack]

Some points to consider:
-We want the cargo hold of each ship to be historically correct.
-Setting crew to affect ship cargo is unrealistic; a ship's cargo is only relevant to the ship type (and/or condition).
-We want as much realism and historic correct variables as possible, mostly to make the game easier as it is already can be very complex.
-Max Cargo hold value is something dangerous to affect dynamically (ie with crew count or ship damage) as it (primarily) would cost a lot in server resources. Max Cargo hold is involved in a lot of calculations and playing screens and we need to keep it as tidy as possible to avoid such problems or we will risk crippling server capabilities (especially when we always plan ahead in order to host thousands of players in the same time online). If we are to affect cargo of a ship, this should always only happen on cargo CURRENTLY carried and not MAX cargo hold. For example, we are open to battle abilities that will reduce cargo (or crew).

Now, let me now reason the above proposed tweaks for cargo hold so everyone can see our approach.

Ship of the Line -> Reduce by 20 -> 60
A cargo of 80 is large for a warship. Roleplay commands that this ship uses its cargo hold for extra armor, extra cannons, extra room for the crew holds and extra room for food supplies for its crew. Not to mention that warships are by construct more agile which means less cargo by default. This is the roleplay explanation of lower cargo holds for warships and here we primarily want to lower the max cargo hold for any warship.
Gameplay wise, if I am right, it is the fastest ship after cutter so it could be used easily for store missions over large merchantman. The greatest problem with this is the unrealism.


Brig -> Reduce by 20 -> 50
If we reduce SoL's cargo, then this cargo has to be reduced to maintain balance for warships. More warships may be affected in a second ship cargo revision. (Just like we did with Ship speeds, we affected it two-three times till we found the best one).

Merchantman -> Reduce by 10 -> 90]/b]
As it is now, no reason to ever pick a Galleon over a Merchantman. No reason at all. This needs to change a bit (It won't but it is a start)

[b]Galleon -> Increase by 10 -> 100
An extra inceptive to use Galleon. Plus galleons have less room for crew and are bigger ships than merchantmen (also slower) therefore they must have larger cargo (historically correct/realism).

Large Fluyt -> Increase by 10 -> 110
These ships advantage is the price (historically correct too!). If you estimate the total cost needed, it is the cheapest ship to build for trading in a cargo/cost ratio (speed is what makes it not a popular choice). They are underused. These ships compare to Large Merchantmen and Trade Galleons so a big player will most probably go for Large Merchantmen anyway as the cost is not a problem for a developed player. Therefore we add some cargo as a little inceptive.

Trade Galleon -> Increase by 10 -> 150
A hefty upgrade to it that will still keep it second behind Large Merchantmen but in close tight for short trips. It is yet unknown if a 60 crew Lvl 1 Trade Galleon which with this change makes less money in the popular Tortuga-Tzogos route fights better than a lvl 1 Large Merchantman with 30 crew. The upkeep cost is sure greater and upgrading costs about the same. It won't matter much now anyway but perhaps in the future it will.


These tweaks are part of an overall plan where ship selection will become more meaningful. With addition of ship abilities and more ideas we can make it more strategic.

One idea we are currently thinking, is to make Ship building available through Nation control. Here is the idea description (nothing decided, just an idea):

-All ports will offer 3 types of ships: Howker, Cutter, Sloop
-Additional Ship Types will be defined by the Nation that controls the port.
-Nations will need to research the ship in order to offer it in the shipwright.
-The council of each nation will decide the ship type used by the nation.
-Research will need turns and gold from the nation. Part of the gold will be paid from Nation treasury which will only rise through taxpayers.
-Any player will be able to build the ship offered in shipwright but there will be a bonus if you are same nation (better price bonus).
-Nations will receive the extra gold paid by non-citizens in their treasury.
-Pirate controlled ports will offer a predefined set of ships which will not need research (Brigantine,Brig,Brig of War) and will not be subject to change.
-We will most probably add one more ship type (either with this idea or at another point): Man'o'war. This will be stronger than Ship of the Line but there will be a hefty price and certain difficulties to obtain it and finally any player will be restricted to perhaps only one such ship.
-When this idea is introduced, most ship types will be unavailable in the shipwrights. However this is not expected to last long as strong nations will be able to pull their researches pretty fast.

Now, some details on ship research, which will make all the difference.
-We will not allow nations to research all ship types. For example, Spain used to build only Galleons (Galleons, Trade Galleons, War Galleons, Flag Galleons). We will try to achieve something similar here and there will be restrictions to achieve it.
-This will not stop a player from getting ANY ship he likes as long as it is available at one port. However, depending on the nation he belongs, he will get special prizes on the nation offered ship types.
-The only restriction perhaps could be for the nations at war. If you are English and your nation is at WAR with France, you will not be able to use the shipwright in French ports.
In another example, if Spain only offers Galleon types of Ships while The Netherlands offers Fluyts and I am Spanish, I will have much better price/turn cost for Galleons in Spanish ports, therefore it will be better for me to get such ships.

Further ideas that may happen sooner or later:
-Redefine Hit Points for each ship: We intend to publish all Hit Point values for every ship and start a public discussion for possible tweaks.
-Ship/Captain/Character Abilities (We already have had some discussion about it, just mentioning it here for future reference).
-Battle Formations; Different ships will be able to perform different formations. Formations will be carried by the Fleet Admiral and different combos will offer different formations. Formations will affect battle and whatever else we might find interesting (danger/trade route/flee chance/bounty/fame/etc)

All these options will provide different setups that will serve different styles; the player will get to choose the the style he/she prefers. There should be no automatic winner, like it is now with Large Merchantman for trading and Ship of the Line for battles. These ships should remain top but there should be given different options so every player will have reasons to mix his fleets a bit in order to achieve what suits him.

Some mixing already takes place but it is limited. This should be improved in the future.

While all these ideas are still on discussion, as the game grows bigger and older, such changes are inevitable. Right now, what is imminent, is the ship cargo hold as it is the easiest one to begin with.

[Xepshunall]

Well, it was fun while it lasted.

[Captain dungeness]

That's a lot of information to sift through and what it means for choosing ships in the future. My opinion is adding ship abilities will be the most effective way to create a situation where players will make different ship choices. Changing the cargo values will make certain ships marginally better or worse, but you can get out your calculator or excel sheet and figure out the optimal choice for trade profit/hour. If some ships did better combat vs. certain other ships (eg. fast ships escape from a slow ship attacker) then I would consider using a safer or sneaker ship type rather than the optimal profit ship.

I'm a bit worried about Captain Abilities or Experience since it would be rather hard for a player to keep track of if they have many different captains with abilities/experience all around the map. Also the Ship Formations feature could provide the tactical planning you are probably aiming for without over-complicating.

I'm a little confused by withholding ship types from some nations. I'm not sure what it would mean for small countries like Bosnia & Herzegovina for example. I would rather have the difficulty be in choosing the right ship for the right job and NOT difficulty getting my hands on the right ship for the job.

As for the short term changes you are talking about making to the cargo values- I think those changes are good.

-Captain D

[Xepshunall]

I can't quite agree with all of this. I have ships that have already been built. For them to have a reduced cargo area, they will have to be torn down and rebuilt with less desirable effect. My ships that have been built WILL NOT SUFFER from a change in design. I would never downgrade any of my ships. They are mine now, to do AS I CHOOSE with. Nobody else has any right to demand that my ships be modified. If you want to discontinue building more of them and create a replacement then that's fine with me but DON'T TOUCH MY SHIPS. You can change what people call them and don't let any more of them be built. I would likely buy some of the ships that the shipwright builds instead of my faithful Ships of the Line. I will reconsider this when I and every player have to keep food, rum, cotton, and tobacco on board for my crew to eat, boost morale, stay clothed and keep calm and store ammunition on-board for combat. Until then, I won't bring them to you for modification. There is no way you are going to convince me to shrink a cargo hold for no gain.

As for creating uses for ships that get no love, you will not succeed unless some of the tactical ideas brought up by players are put into effect. As CPT Dungeness stated, we will determine, by mathematical means, which ships will net us the best profit and which ports will do the same. You started this ball rolling. Now you have players who expect you to act on the ideas that you asked for. Most of them have some very good points and your staff is not likely to do better than these gamers. They live in their fantasy worlds and see things change to suit them. They expect it. The creators could see themselves as the gods but the numbers come from those who dwell in the realm.

Even a God has to take notice of the desires of his creations if he doesn't want it all to crumble to dust. We live and breath and dream of better things. If they don't come, we despair and destroy.