same old stan

[Leo]

"Chew On This" and "Omnivores Dilemma" are two great books that go into detail about the food industry, with the former focusing heavily on the meat industry and the attrocities that go along with it. It almost turned me vegetarian but rather I became more conscious about where I ate meat from

[Dmanwuzhere]

You aren't going to convince me that animal farming is just a front for individuals to torture animals.
Now, if you define a regulated practice on poor unsuspecting animals ending in death as torture, so be it.
Then you either need to be vegan or go hunting for wild cows, pigs, and chickens to get your meat.
However, a bow rifle sling or knife is still going to end with an animal's death.
So I suggest you create the tickle them to death method so they are happy while dying.

As for me, I will eat the food as I buy it.

Again, Leo, you have moral objections that don't show in your lived practices.

You hate the oil industry but utilize vehicles, hate plastics but utilize them daily, hate the death of animals but eat them daily.
I think you are pampered with entitlement and, as a result, think your moral standards can be broken by you but not others.
You support everything you are against and throw money at it to enrich the people you supposedly hate.
Hate me, Leo I'll spend your money as quick as you give it to me in hatred.

[Meliva]

a lotta young people nowadays seem to want to browbeat others into doing the actual work and not actually commit themselves. hate capitalism yet enjoy the fruits of it. Never seem to see socialists or communists move into countries that fit their world view do you?

[Leo]

I see it all the time. But then again, perhaps there aren't any countries that fit their view and that's why they want to change it. But the countries that most closely align with those views often have the highest quality of life ratings globally as well as the least poverty, homelessness and wealth gaps. Capitalism is one of those things that is great at first but late stage if it isn't heavily regulated it is exploited and screws over the vast majority of people for the gain of a few. In any case I did not say factory farms were a front for animal torture. Factory farms are mass-farming practices that happen to be unethical in a multitude of ways. The books I was referring to actually went more into detail about why it's bad for humans, not for animals.

[Meliva]

let me guess Leo. The countries you're referring to as being high quality of life and socialist are the Nordic countries, right? Despite the fact that even a literal president of one of them went on to say that they were most certainly not, socialist countries and a 5 second google search- something I keep telling you that you should probably start doing when you make a big claim, will tell you they are capitalist.

They have a lot of social policies. But they have freer markets then America does. They are capitalist. Every place that is actually socialist or communist, is not a good place to live. But hey, if I'm wrong, do tell me. What countries are you referring to if not the nordic countries?

[Leo]

They aren't socialist. They do have many socialist programs that the US lacks, though. Programs that we would be better off with. Maybe everything isn't so black and white meliva. You can be a socialist without wanting to live in Soviet Russia. You can be a socialist and still appreciate luxuries that not everyone can afford. Socialism isn't about making everything equal, it's about making sure everyone can survive, and making sure resources don't get hoarded by a fringe class of people who have 0 interest in the well being of the rest. Funny enough, most of the socialist or communist "disasters" that are commonly pointed to as examples of why communism fails are results of the US's own involvement. The CIA has made it their mission to destabilize communist countries to make communism appear weak, because those in power - the rich - want to hang on to their hoarded wealth and socialism and communism are the enemies of billionaires. People also conflate communism with authoritarianism, which is actually found all the way along the political spectrum, left to right. Fascism is a form of authoritarianism that is found on the right. What we are seeing in China is a spin off of communism with an authoritarian government, so it could be argued it's a leftist government despite it conflicting with most leftist ideologies. The two are not mutually exclusive, although the US has tried its very best to make sure they are. Capitalism has killed more people than communism.

[Meliva]

You can be a socialist in a capitalist society. You can't be a capitalist in a socialist society. What's stopping you, or anyone for that matter from making a company where the workers own equal shares, and profits are divided up evenly.

Capitalism has brought more people out of poverty, into good standards of living, then any other system. Leo, the poorest people in america on average, are still considered as more well off based on global standards.

Capitalism has not killed more then communism. That is incredibly ignorant and stupid to say. Do you not know of the great leap forward? The purges in Russia? Tell me, other then an imbalance in wealth and power-something that every system will have not just capitalism- has capitalism done that has killed anyone? Sure, we've destabilized a few countries. Soviet Union tried to prop up a few too. But even if you want to blame the US for them failing, that's a matter of national interests, not the fault of capitalism. Because again, soviet union was invested in making other countries that were communist/socialist work, while we tried to wreck them and boost capitalist countries. That's largely all the cold war was.

So tell me. How has capitalism killed anyone? Because even if you wanna argue inequality, that crap happens in every system.

[Leo]

Capitalism has killed people in the following ways:

- Poverty leading to hunger or lack of shelter caused by increased prices or price gouging
- overdose on drugs created by pharmaceutical companies (meth, fentanyl, oxycodone, to name a few)
- war over oil
- war over food (bananas, namely)
- death due to health insurance companies refusing coverage, or price gouging on life-saving medicine

You can argue about how much capitalism has to do with those things, but you can't claim capitalism hasn't killed people. Capitalism monetizes basic necessities such as food, water, shelter and healthcare for the profit of a few at the top, who subsequently also control the government through bribes and other forms of corruption like stock trading. When people can't afford those necessities anymore, they start dying. This has been going on for as long as the system exists, which is why we have adopted SOCIALIST programs to prevent these deaths. Examples of these programs are welfare checks, food stamps/EBT, social security, subsidized housing. I don't believe people shouldn't have to work to live comfortably. But I think it would be beneficial to all if people weren't at risk of dying because their job isn't bringing home enough money to pay for the ever rising cost of food, or because they can't afford the medicine they need, or because their landlord raised their rent in the middle of winter.

Capitalism, to be successful, relies on the benevolence of humans as a whole, which time and time again, we have shown to not exhibit. How free is our market when .1% of companies control 50% of it? Or when the top 1% control over 50% of the wealth? The free market is a lie. We are slaves to the billionaires and the mega corporations and each year achieving the American dream becomes less and less attainable as the cost of living increases while the median income remains unchanged.

[Meliva]

Leo. Food. water. Shelter. Medicine. Those have always been monetized. When in human history has any of the EVER, been just, given freely to all the people in a country?
Edit- I'm sure there might be a few fringe cases of massive charity, or maybe temporary periods where some of it might have been given, but not on a large scale for extended periods of time. But by all means, point to a country and or time period where they weren't monetized at all.


Poverty has been a killer for most if not all of human history. If a landlord does't boost your rent, the king back in the day could just take your land. Wars happen for resources with or without capitalism. Overdoseing on drugs, only happens when you take the damn drugs. I could go out right now, buy several bottles of various pills, a big thing of alcohol and overdoes myself right now. Would you blame capitalism for that? I sure as hell wouldn't, considering it's not what put the pills in my mouth.

Social programs, are not the same as socialism Leo.

Also, in order for socialism and communism to work, you AGAIN, need to rely on the benevolence of humans. Because in order to implement it, you need someone to enforce it. If that person enforcing it decides to go tyrannical, nothing can stop them. Why do you think every socialist or communist country ends up with a dictator? Because those systems give more and more power to the government, which RARELY ends well.

[Leo]

Hold on. Don't mix up the way things always have been with the way things should be. The government could pay for every single person to have the bare minimum in order to survive, and it would cost the taxpayers almost nothing compared to our other expenses. People wouldn't "live off of the system" because no one wants the bare minimum. People want money to spend on the things they like, to go out out to eat, to watch movies, to go to concerts etc. no one wants to just survive, people want to LIVE. And this is proven by countries which have implemented such programs, refered to as basic universal income, which still have great economies and no one really lives off the taxpayer dollars because it's simply not enough to have an enjoyable life. That's about as socialist as I get. I don't believe that luxuries should be socialized, because that takes away incentive for people to work. I also don't believe that business owners shouldn't make more than their employees, because that takes away incentive to run a business. I think capitalism can work, but these socialist programs are needed to keep it from being exploited, and then even if it does they are there to safeguard the poor. Let dying of poverty be a thing of the past, told about in stories but not a current reality.