The problem with plantations

[Haron]

An inreasing number of players are running plantations across Avonmora, filling the acres in every port. Yet, while I think the idea that the players should produce the goods in Avonmora is a good one, I think plantations have some problems.

First, I think we can all agree that plantations can make a lot of gold. They can be a source of a very high income. However, unlike for trading, there is no risk associated with this high income. We need the connection between risk and income. The higher the income, the higher the risk should be. And this should be the case no matter how expensive it is to get that income. Even if the one time investment is very high, once that is made, there should be no such thing as a risk free, high source of income. In short: We need a way to attack plantations.

To make matters worse, it is even possible to run plantations without a single fleet. Sure, they need a small amount of goods to function, but that is only a very small amount, and it can be bought from others if needed. Unlike gold bars, goods produced at plantations can be sold at the port where they are produced, so one does not need lots of fleets to transport them to other ports. In fact, for players with max warehouse tycoon, One is actually able to buy goods at the port (using Western India cards) at a LOWER price than what one sells them for.

So. Plantations are introduced. Let's call it version 1.0. It is now established, and we can see that it needs to change. It is time to find out how plantations version 2.0 should work. And that version desperately needs to include some risk. Some way to attack plantations.

[sXs]

An inreasing number of players are running plantations across Avonmora, filling the acres in every port. Yet, while I think the idea that the players should produce the goods in Avonmora is a good one, I think plantations have some problems.

First, I think we can all agree that plantations can make a lot of gold. They can be a source of a very high income. However, unlike for trading, there is no risk associated with this high income. We need the connection between risk and income. The higher the income, the higher the risk should be. And this should be the case no matter how expensive it is to get that income. Even if the one time investment is very high, once that is made, there should be no such thing as a risk free, high source of income. In short: We need a way to attack plantations.

To make matters worse, it is even possible to run plantations without a single fleet. Sure, they need a small amount of goods to function, but that is only a very small amount, and it can be bought from others if needed. Unlike gold bars, goods produced at plantations can be sold at the port where they are produced, so one does not need lots of fleets to transport them to other ports. In fact, for players with max warehouse tycoon, One is actually able to buy goods at the port (using Western India cards) at a LOWER price than what one sells them for.

So. Plantations are introduced. Let's call it version 1.0. It is now established, and we can see that it needs to change. It is time to find out how plantations version 2.0 should work. And that version desperately needs to include some risk. Some way to attack plantations.

I agree 100% and made this point several times in Dev team conversations 6 months to a year ago. I think these things need to be addressed before any other upgrades/dev changes are done.

Risk must be brought into plantations and the risk must be equivalent to the size and profit potential of the plantation. The advent of the player's resources and workers markets has eliminated all risk.

Fertile lands card also comes into play. Nations gain no profit from the use of this card, so in some cases, a nation's income could only be the operating permission. In several cases, Fertile lands cast is much cheaper than rental rates. Also, Fertile Lands is good for 28 days while rental is 21 days.

I made a list of changes that would address each issue with plantations, The longer the developers wait to make changes the more outrage there will be at the changes that need to be made.

#1 Either elimination or a complete restructuring of Player resource and workers market. A simple fix would be you can not buy resources for your plantation in the port in which your plantation is located. If you have a plantation in Tzogos, you could buy all your resources in Tortuga but must transport them in via ship, same with workers. The issue comes in when you have plantations in several ports. The coding would be a nightmare.

#2 Plantation incomes could be made to be transportable. right now you simply sign in, bank your profits, restock resources and any workers you may need and then sign out. Why not require a plantations income be transported to your bank. This would bring realism into things and risk. It would open up the ability to raid profits.



#3 Nations income should not come solely from rental fees, it should be based on amount of acreage of each plantation.

#4 Direct threat risks that could be brought in..... natural disasters, worker revolts, plagues, swarm of locusts ......Raids.

I have several other ideas, but these were a few of the top things I think need to be addressed.

This is a PvP game, at least it was originally when I joined, now it has, more and more, become another "sim" game. Sign in, bank gold, maybe a few upgrades here and there, sign out.

[Leo the Conqueror]

Haron wrote:
An inreasing number of players are running plantations across Avonmora, filling the acres in every port. Yet, while I think the idea that the players should produce the goods in Avonmora is a good one, I think plantations have some problems.

First, I think we can all agree that plantations can make a lot of gold. They can be a source of a very high income. However, unlike for trading, there is no risk associated with this high income. We need the connection between risk and income. The higher the income, the higher the risk should be. And this should be the case no matter how expensive it is to get that income. Even if the one time investment is very high, once that is made, there should be no such thing as a risk free, high source of income. In short: We need a way to attack plantations.

To make matters worse, it is even possible to run plantations without a single fleet. Sure, they need a small amount of goods to function, but that is only a very small amount, and it can be bought from others if needed. Unlike gold bars, goods produced at plantations can be sold at the port where they are produced, so one does not need lots of fleets to transport them to other ports. In fact, for players with max warehouse tycoon, One is actually able to buy goods at the port (using Western India cards) at a LOWER price than what one sells them for.

So. Plantations are introduced. Let's call it version 1.0. It is now established, and we can see that it needs to change. It is time to find out how plantations version 2.0 should work. And that version desperately needs to include some risk. Some way to attack plantations.

This isn't a bad idea, and honestly any doubt I have most likely comes from me worrying about my own plantations.

Here's what I think:

If plantations can be attacked, a plantation owner shouldn't be able to "lose it all" in a single attack the way they can with ships.

There would still need to be a way that plantation owners could protect themselves. I think this is where guards comes into play.

Pirates should be the only ones able to attack plantations.

Plantations are already hard to run. If there becomes the risk of your plantation being raided, I think there should be slightly more income from them. Otherwise running a plantation wouldn't be worth it.

[sXs]

Orry,..... i hit wrong button...

[Most Lee Harmless]

I think this problem is easier addressed within the framework of 'port battles'. The notion of nations defending their ports with gun emplacements and troops as suggested in other threads. Within that mechanic should be the chance for a successful assault to 'loot' warehouses including plantation stocks.

If one looked at a quicker 'fix' then any transfer of port ownership should entail the plundering of warehouses as part and parcel of the take-over.

This would act as both an incentive to attack and one to defend the ports your plantations lie in. The dialemma could then arise that your own nation is doing the attacking and plundering.

[Axy]

uh. Danik, that would probably give another status to traders that aren't marquess or dukes. That seems rather interesting... It would probably cause dukes to be more war focussed and less trading focussed. It does seem very interesting. It could even lead to dukes/traders selling and buying plantations (like a new feature, for those that have the permissions) that the seller already built because the seller is, for example, from a nation that is at war with the port owner. Is this something you would like, or you don't agree it would turn out this way?

I don't think plantations should just be raided and that is it. If it takes time to build a plantation, it should be needed preparation/a new feature to attack them and it should not be easy. Maybe nations that have an interest in the busyness should be able to help attack/defend? Maybe pirates should be able to synchronise attacks?

[sXs]

I think this problem is easier addressed within the framework of 'port battles'. The notion of nations defending their ports with gun emplacements and troops as suggested in other threads. Within that mechanic should be the chance for a successful assault to 'loot' warehouses including plantation stocks.

If one looked at a quicker 'fix' then any transfer of port ownership should entail the plundering of warehouses as part and parcel of the take-over.

This would act as both an incentive to attack and one to defend the ports your plantations lie in. The dialemma could then arise that your own nation is doing the attacking and plundering.

This puts the onus on the nation, not the plantation owner. I do agree that port defense and ownership needs to be looked at, but this does not address the fact that you can make HUGE profits without sailing a single ship...... in a game that is supposed to be sea based......

[Haron]

Danik, while I think your idea sounds interesting, and I have thought about similar things myself, I find it challenging that players of all nations can have plantations in all ports. I think that makes it more difficult. What if we have plantations in the same port, and I want to attack your plantation? I think that should be possible as well.

[sXs]

uh. Danik, that would probably give another status to traders that aren't marquess or dukes. That seems rather interesting... It would probably cause dukes to be more war focussed and less trading focussed. It does seem very interesting. It could even lead to dukes/traders selling and buying plantations (like a new feature, for those that have the permissions) that the seller already built because the seller is, for example, from a nation that is at war with the port owner. Is this something you would like, or you don't agree it would turn out this way?

I don't think plantations should just be raided and that is it. If it takes time to build a plantation, it should be needed preparation/a new feature to attack them and it should not be easy. Maybe nations that have an interest in the busyness should be able to help attack/defend? Maybe pirates should be able to synchronise attacks?

With fertile lands ability to dole out unlimited acreage..... nations have little interest in defending plantations. Their interest lies only in the operating permission. If you go down this route then nations should get a tax revenue based on the profits of the plantations.

[Most Lee Harmless]

I just raise the possibility of an assault upon a port having an element of plundering of warehouses. As warehouse stocks are key to maintaining a plantation, regardless of how they got there, then that creates an incentive to assault ports.

From the plantation owners perspective, the more you own across the map and flags the more convoluted your incentives and abilities to protect your plant. In your own nation's ports you can influence defences, but in another nation's ports you can not. So, what risk are you prepared to run in having a plantation in that port?

As I said, I see it as part of a wider 'port battles' mechanic, in which there may be room for third parties to act both for and against an assault and/or plunder. Bear in mind, past dev posts have included optional outcomes to successful assaults.

But, as a quick fix, one that adds some risk of loss where there is none at present, then adding 'warehouse plunder' to a successful port takeover does do that.

If my suggestion contravenes some absolute condition in another's opinion well, how about you post ALL of those conditions first rather than have us waste our time producing ideas that you cant abide. Save my time and your owm.