Free will

[DezNutz]

Maybe this will help explain what I am trying to say.

I grew up in a very small town in Northern Wisconsin. The population of that town the year I graduated high school was 86 people. Of those 86 people, 60 of them were relatives. My grandfather was born in that town Lived his entire life in that town and died in that town. His entire life he never travel more than 50 miles from town. To him, to his "perception", that was his universe. That was his everything. All of his experiences, all of his knowledge, all of his understanding was based in that area.

How would you prove to my grandfather that there was more than that?

Simple. On a clear night, look up.

Again there is that damn problem with observation and perception being individually based.

Yes observation and perception is individually, but that is why there is the scientific method. You observe, you hypothesize, you test. The ability of others to repeat and draw the same conclusions can confirm the observation.

[Grimrock Litless]

How would one convince someone who knows only one side of the coin to know the other side without stopping from looking at the side of the coin he was looking at.

[Grimrock Litless]

"We can't prove if the universe exist or not, but we humans, each and everyone of us, managed to evolve a brain that allows us to model the universe and make sense of it."

[sXs]

Yes observation and perception is individually, but that is why there is the scientific method. You observe, you hypothesize, you test. The ability of others to repeat and draw the same conclusions can confirm the observation.

What chair?

or in this case..... what universe?

Is the belief in the universe any different in a belief in God? Or a belief in unicorns?

After all, we still have people that believe the earth is flat. I am sure they have been presented with evidence that has gone through a "scientific method".

You may think or believe there is a universe. In fact, it may be completely obvious to you in the same way the earth is round and the sun is the center of the solar system. I am not asking why you believe or what measures you used to base that belief.

What was the universe to my grandfather?....

or simply...... what universe.

Perception people......

Two people can look at the exact same painting and see two completely different things. Does that necessarily mean that one of them is wrong in their perception of that painting?

[DezNutz]

I can place a glass of water on a table. Perception allows for those to say the glass is half full vs half empty, shape of the glass, size of the glass, opacity of the glass, clarity of the water, etc. Perception doesn't change the fact that it is a glass of water on a table.

The same applies to the painting. Two people can have different perspective of the painting, but it is still a painting.

[sXs]

I can place a glass of water on a table. Perception allows for those to say the glass is half full vs half empty, shape of the glass, size of the glass, opacity of the glass, clarity of the water, etc. Perception doesn't change the fact that it is a glass of water on a table.

The same applies to the painting. Two people can have different perspective of the painting, but it is still a painting.

Then what about the flat earthers. They both agree the earth exists. The issue is their perception.

Ok more applicable question then. This works because of the nearly 50-50 split on this.

question....... Is president Trump a racist?

Both sides of this have observed the exact same behavior.

Yes this is opinion, but opinions are based on perception so it is applicable.

[DezNutz]

Racism is a matter of perception. The reason I say that is people define racism differently. Some seem to think that only white people can be racist, or only people holding power over others can be racist, or only when it comes from another race, or some other arbitrary definition that they deem to use define someone as a racist.

To answer the question no. The supporting evidence that he is a racist doesn't hold up when scrutinized to the base definition of racism.

[sXs]

Racism is a matter of perception. The reason I say that is people define racism differently. Some seem to think that only white people can be racist, or only people holding power over others can be racist, or only when it comes from another race, or some other arbitrary definition that they deem to use define someone as a racist.

To answer the question no. The supporting evidence that he is a racist doesn't hold up when scrutinized to the base definition of racism.

So why can't the same explanation apply to my grandfather. He could simply define the universe in a much smaller scale because that was his perception. To him, that is all that matters. Perception is actually one of the most important factors in decision making, actually it is the formative factor in our belief system. Whether something is or isn't doe snot matter to us as much as our own perception of what things are.

We may be wrong in others eyes, but our own perception of what is or isn't, is how we proceed.

Is this act evil or not?
Is this beneficial or not?
Is this decision the right one or not?

Or even..... How will other perceive my actions?

Those are all based on perception. This is why in most ways I agree with Grim. It isn't so much free will as it is a path based on individual perception. I do believe in Randomness.... or "The unified Theory of Randomness" meaning, by knowing all the steps that lead to a specific place in time, we can predict whats comes next, but not knowing all the steps that lead to that place and time is where randomness comes into play. Things are only perceived to be random because we do not know what came before.


or in its simplest form.....

What free will.

[sXs]

This question that Grim posed is a philosophical question that has been around for years. It is known as "The Dilemma of Determinism".+

" If our decision making is influenced by an endless chain of causality, then determinism is true and we don't have free will. But if the opposite is true, what's called indeterminism, then our actions must be random — what some argue is still not free will."

"Consciousness seems to be intimately and inescapably tied to the perception of the passage of time, and indeed, the idea that the past is fixed and perfectly deterministic, and that the future is unknowable. This fits well, because if the future were predetermined, then there'd be no free will, and no point in the participation of the passage of time."- Vepstas

[DezNutz]

Racism is a matter of perception. The reason I say that is people define racism differently. Some seem to think that only white people can be racist, or only people holding power over others can be racist, or only when it comes from another race, or some other arbitrary definition that they deem to use define someone as a racist.

To answer the question no. The supporting evidence that he is a racist doesn't hold up when scrutinized to the base definition of racism.

So why can't the same explanation apply to my grandfather. He could simply define the universe in a much smaller scale because that was his perception. To him, that is all that matters. Perception is actually one of the most important factors in decision making, actually it is the formative factor in our belief system. Whether something is or isn't doe snot matter to us as much as our own perception of what things are.

We may be wrong in others eyes, but our own perception of what is or isn't, is how we proceed.

Is this act evil or not?
Is this beneficial or not?
Is this decision the right one or not?

Or even..... How will other perceive my actions?

Those are all based on perception. This is why in most ways I agree with Grim. It isn't so much free will as it is a path based on individual perception. I do believe in Randomness.... or "The unified Theory of Randomness" meaning, by knowing all the steps that lead to a specific place in time, we can predict whats comes next, but not knowing all the steps that lead to that place and time is where randomness comes into play. Things are only perceived to be random because we do not know what came before.


or in its simplest form.....

What free will.

Common perception is how things are defined in a language and society/culture. Without commonality you would end up with millions of different Voynich Manuscripts. Your grandfather could define his life as the universe he lived in as that is a commonly perceived definition, just not the primary definition of the universe.

Beside the point. Free will is just one's ability to make a choice. There is no pre-determination. To put it very simply, Cause and Effect. The end results of your choice can be straight forward or can be impacted by other causes down the line. Randomness is the perception of effect without knowing and/or understanding the cause.