Port Blockades (Large)

[DezNutz]

Ok, but you can't create a feature that is lopsided or provides no or very little incentive for the one side on the premise that down the road another feature will add to the incentive. Starting small is the right approach but the feature must still provide an equal footing for all sides. There are clear incentives on the initiating side, but very little for those countering.

CJ stated that port blockades are naval traffic control, they aren't defined as defensive or offensive, and can be implemented by anyone to include the port owning nation. In being universal in use, i think the use of the terms attackers and defenders is poor, considering that the system can be used by anyone. It should be Initiators and counters. The sole motive for countering can not be detrimental to the port as the blockade can be initiated by the port owner. If the only motive is detriment to the port, you are limiting the feature to offensive actions which CJ expressly stated this feature wasn't. The feature is naval traffic control.

Port Blockade

What is it?
A port blockade is an action that allows the total control of the naval traffic of a port. There can be no types of blockades. Every blockade, no matter who establishes it, allows naval traffic control.

Additionally as I stated in a previous post, there exists, IMO, a fundamental flaw to the setup. The process of blockade resolution occurs before the actual blockade occurs. During that process all fleets have 24 hours to leave the "battle" at their convenience or will be removed automatically at the end of the period. What is actually blockading during the blockade, as the fleets that should be blockading are no longer there.

[DezNutz]

Here is quick run down of how I would setup this feature.

Blockade can be started by anyone.
Initiating a blockade costs gc and turns.
Initiator must have a MoW in the first fleet.
24 hour period from initiation for players to join with any number of fleets.
Anyone can join in on the blockade
Fleets added must have at minimum of 3 warships.
After 24 hours ends, blockade begins.
Blockade blocks naval traffic to port as defined by the initiator.
Blockade rules could be similar to stated in section 4 ACTIVE BLOCKADE of the the OP.
Once the blockade starts only players that are already part of the blockade can add fleets.
Fleets do not need to be present to be added to the blockade; however, once selected to be added, the fleets are routed to the blockade.
Fleets that are in the blockade can only be effected by attacking the blockade.
Voodoo can not be used on the blockade fleets.
Fleets in the blockade remain in the blockade until the blockade ends.
Ship repairs can only occur before the blockade starts, before the fleet is added to the blockade (if blockade is active), or after the blockade ends. (Could possibly allow a 1 per day repair that repairs only x% of the total HP lost at a significant cost)
Blockade ends at the first game update after all fleets in the blockade are "sunk"
No fleets can be added if all current fleets are "sunk".
Anyone can attack the blockade.
To attack a blockade, the attacking fleet only needs to be at the port.
Attacking a blockade gains normal danger
Attacking a blockade costs double turns.
Attacking the blockade fights a random floating fleet in the blockade.
Attacking the blockade functions similar to plunder. Winner gets plunder reward, minus ship plunder (Can't steal ships from a blockade fleet)
Once blockade ends, 24 hours for those that blockaded to leave blockade.
All fleets that blockaded receive 54 danger.
MoW cannot be placed in a Marina for 72 hours after blockade ends.
Another blockade cannot be implemented on the port for 48 hours after a blockade ends.


Simple and straight forward setup. Obviously there would need to be some items elaborated on, and adjustments would need to be made, but I think this would be more straight forward as a blockade than what is currently suggested.

[Most Lee Harmless]

If any fleet can attack the blockaders, does this mean they are not 'stuck' in the counter fleet until the blockade ends? Or are we suggesting anyone can try to 'run' the blockade by fighting a random fleet in it? This would mean they are fresh undamaged fleets coming up against possibly very damaged fleets, with the longer the blockade goes on, the more damaged : whilst that is actually realistic, many blockades ended purely of the need to repair, maintain and victual the blockading ships, I reckon some daily % repair metric is fair enough for the blockaders, to represent running repairs by their ships carpenters, sail makers and other skilled craftsmen who would have been aboard.

If we look at Feniks suggestion to 'switch' the income focus from population tax to trade income taxes, and then put that as the 'carrot' to maintain the blockade, it becomes workable. One issue I have is how to resolve when the blockade has succeeded, and thus the loot can be gathered, and when it is still contested and not yet 'in play' thus the port keeps its income. One notion might be to not worry about resolutions phases, etc : the blockade exists as long as a fleet blockades the port : it can 'tax' trade into the port thas chooses to pay (the toll, which then means no tax income to the port), plunder that which doesnt and, of course, receive plunder from blockade runners it defeats. This is what damages the ports income, the trade income is lost to it. The owner fights to get the trade income back.

As the trader pays the same tax to either blockader or port, there is not much reason for them to switch routes away from the port. Unless its pride or friendship with the port owners, they will keep running trade regardless. So, that income remains in play for both sides to compete for.

So, a 'runner' can challenge the blockade fleet, by fighting a random fleet within it : this is fought under normal rules, with plunder to the winner. I agree with Dez, that should exclude any ship capture, maybe more like skirmish rules on that. : I would also suggest each blockade fleet can only fight once per hour : if no blockade fleet is available to fight a 'runner', the blockade has been broken and the attempt ends.

Should the initiator find that most of their fleets are left unable to defeat a runner, doesnt want the continuing plunder losses nor to re-inforce the blockade fleet, they can 'stand down' and end their attempt themselves. That then starts the 72hr clock before another attempt can be made. I'd push that a bit further and say 7 days cool-down : the victors deserve it as, under this method, a blockade could have taken many many days to end and could, theoretically, last forever... ouch!

Now, that would work for me as both initiator and counter-force (good idea, those names, it was bugging me before with attacker/defender cos actually, the blockade is what is being defended, not the port, the port attacks the blockade to remove it.

[DezNutz]

If any fleet can attack the blockaders, does this mean they are not 'stuck' in the counter fleet until the blockade ends? Or are we suggesting anyone can try to 'run' the blockade by fighting a random fleet in it? This would mean they are fresh undamaged fleets coming up against possibly very damaged fleets, with the longer the blockade goes on, the more damaged : whilst that is actually realistic, many blockades ended purely of the need to repair, maintain and victual the blockading ships, I reckon some daily % repair metric is fair enough for the blockaders, to represent running repairs by their ships carpenters, sail makers and other skilled craftsmen who would have been aboard.

My suggestion is a rework of the blockade setup, not just an addition or minor alteration. There would be no defender fleet or battle setup. Yes with my simplified setup, any fleet would be able to attack the blockade, and would not be stuck in some counter/defender fleet until the blockade completes. Didn't think about a "running the blockade", but that could be an applicable addition and would be also a random 1v1 against the blocker fleet. So fresh fleets would be making runs/attacks against a slowly weakening blockade.

If we look at Feniks suggestion to 'switch' the income focus from population tax to trade income taxes, and then put that as the 'carrot' to maintain the blockade, it becomes workable. One issue I have is how to resolve when the blockade has succeeded, and thus the loot can be gathered, and when it is still contested and not yet 'in play' thus the port keeps its income. One notion might be to not worry about resolutions phases, etc : the blockade exists as long as a fleet blockades the port : it can 'tax' trade into the port thas chooses to pay (the toll, which then means no tax income to the port), plunder that which doesnt and, of course, receive plunder from blockade runners it defeats. This is what damages the ports income, the trade income is lost to it. The owner fights to get the trade income back.

As the trader pays the same tax to either blockader or port, there is not much reason for them to switch routes away from the port. Unless its pride or friendship with the port owners, they will keep running trade regardless. So, that income remains in play for both sides to compete for.

So, a 'runner' can challenge the blockade fleet, by fighting a random fleet within it : this is fought under normal rules, with plunder to the winner. I agree with Dez, that should exclude any ship capture, maybe more like skirmish rules on that. : I would also suggest each blockade fleet can only fight once per hour : if no blockade fleet is available to fight a 'runner', the blockade has been broken and the attempt ends.

Should the initiator find that most of their fleets are left unable to defeat a runner, doesnt want the continuing plunder losses nor to re-inforce the blockade fleet, they can 'stand down' and end their attempt themselves. That then starts the 72hr clock before another attempt can be made. I'd push that a bit further and say 7 days cool-down : the victors deserve it as, under this method, a blockade could have taken many many days to end and could, theoretically, last forever... ouch!

Now, that would work for me as both initiator and counter-force (good idea, those names, it was bugging me before with attacker/defender cos actually, the blockade is what is being defended, not the port, the port attacks the blockade to remove it.

I disagree with changing the taxes as Feniks suggested. The suggestions to fix the issues that are being made are focusing blockades to be an offensive action against ports which have to be defended against, which CJ has stated that blockades do not have a type and can be used in a variety of manners.
Blockades are to be considered naval traffic control. To me that means any suggestion/alterations must not benefit a specific use. The prime example I have for this is that a nation could implement their own blockade at their port to block players or other nations from trading their goods their. If the suggestions that are currently being brought forth are implemented, that scenario could never play out. While I know my scenario is not as likely as others, it is still an option that should be allowed that fits into the definition that CJ has placed forth for Blockades.

[Most Lee Harmless]

Aye, the port owner itself, or allies, can keep running at the blockade to break it : once no blockading fleets are present to fight, the blockade is broken. Thus any one with an interest can have a go, their reward being the plunder score if they win, if they lose, the blockading fleet plunder them, as per usual rules.

I see a few tactical moves coming from this : its not in the blockaders interest to have too many 'spam' fleets as they will lose and cost plunder. the counter force will also have choices : all out mass attack or slow attrition : but if we keep the health bonus applied to blockade fleets that dont fight in a round, then its not in the counters interest to leave blockade fleets uncontested as they then grow stronger.. mmm.. and with the fog of war, the counters wont know exactly how many fleets they face, nor the blockaders know how many fleets may be coming at them in any one hour.. Letters of Marque to break the blockade? There is another facet which can come into play : Nation bounties for blockade runners? And another facet, all could be done without the use of any voodoo at all : just pure sea power.

My idea makes the blockade a dynamic event, not a series of timed periods with a result at the end. My idea is the blockade is in place when the first fleets initiate it. Now the counter force must break it to end the blockade and recover its trade incomes. Until it does that and reduces the blockade to the point no fleet is available to fight a 'runner', which may be one of several fleets sent by the owner, or an independent, or mercenary, then the blockade exists and functions, ad infinitum.

[Haron]

While I agree that a system where a blockade is in place and effective until it is broken is a good idea, I think it would require some other combat mechanics than allowing anyone to attack it under ordinary combat rules. Then one can simple destroy the blockade by repeated attacks by a medium size fleet, much like defeating the last two bosses in nation missions. My original blockade suggestion also had a blockade fleet permanently in place (but with a separate rule set to defeat it).

If such a "constant blockade" is in place, I think some other mechanism than ordinary plunder rules with no repair for the blockaders is needed.

An alternative could be that the blockade is established using the rules suggested by CJ, and if victorious, the blockade is in effect until broken. It can be broken by simply reversing the rules - now, someone has to declare a "blockade breaking attempt" against the blockade initiator, with the blockaders as "defenders" and blockade breakers "attackers" under the same set of rules. Not as elegant as having an actual blockade fleet in place, but simple. It requires more activity from all parties, though.

[Most Lee Harmless]

I think the major difference would be that firstly : the blockade fleet is randomly chosen and only fights once that hour : so the chances it would be repeatedly hit are slim. Secondly, the blockading fleets, if un-engaged, will acquire the proposed health bonus and grow stronger. I would have no objection to a hourly % self-repair rate, if not sunk, for blockade ships, perhaps if a brig fleet is present in the blockaders it can be presumed to be working under RFA rules : thirdly : the blockaders can still add fleets, if they feel there is still plunder to be gained to maintain the required active fleet. Or, if not, they can 'retire' their fleets and just sail away and the blockade is over. But whilst one blockading fleets exists, in place, then the blockade exists.

If we are to consider future improvements and their effect on blockades, then Letters of Marque and Nation Bounties would both be useful, even for both sides.

[Haron]

What rules would you propose for entering fleets into an active blockade? Can any fleet be entered at any time? Can a fleet which was recently defeated be repaired and then reentered? If not, would it be possible to repair the ships, move them to another fleet and enter that into the blockade? Are fleets somehow entered at the "top of the hour"? What, if any, voodoo can be cast by blockaders and breakers? Can any fleet attack the blockade as many times as it like, or is there some limit? If a limit, can the ships in said fleet be removed and entered into a new fleet to circumvent the limit?

[Most Lee Harmless]

No, once a fleet is 'sunk' with no undamaged ships, it is still locked into the blockade fleet : the only way to remove them is to declare the blockade over and sail away : that starts the cool-down period before another attempt can be made. if a new fleet is entered into the blockade, it stays there until the blockade ends : thus such decisions matter to the initiating admiral : strategically, how many to start with, how long do they think they can maintain the blockade? Tactically, when to add more and when to say enough. The carrot is the blockade is siphoning off the ports trade incomes while it is active (using Feniks idea to switch focus from pop tax to trade tax) so each hour adds that income : but is it worth the costs of fleets tied up for days on end? Plus, the steadily weakening blockade fleets will start to leak plunder to runners attempts to break through it : so, barring the continual adding of fresh fleets, the blockade would be a finite tool, which is realistic enough : most blockades ended, or where paused, because the fleets had to go home to re-provision and repair themselves.

[Haron]

I absolutely agree on the increased trade tax.

However, for this combat mechanic, I fear that anyone wishing to break the blockade can simply pummel it with a large number of attacks from medium sized fleets. Not very difficult, and not THAT much risk/cost. I would have no problem attacking 50 times with one fleet, and I assume that goes for several players. And so, I believe breaking the blockade in this manner is simply too easy. One fleet trying to break the blockade is worth a 100 fleets trying to maintain the blockade with these machanics. I still like the idea of a permanent blockade which stays in effect until broken, though, but believe other rules need to be in place to break it.