Nation Diplomacy

[Sir Thalius Hayle]

I think the issue that was brought up though, is that the game lacks a mechanism by which the nation can keep a rogue member in check. I suppose they could deport them, but they could just come back. Members of the nation could attack them I suppose, but would incur hostility against their own nation in doing so. A tax penalty system that was activated against such a member by the nation could stick with them until it was fulfilled, pausing when/if they leave the nation and resuming when/if they should ever return.

[Astragek]

And that's where a jail idea might come in handy. A 30 day jail sentence in which said player is unable to conduct any nation related moves. IE attack any members of nations in alliance/ peace treaty with players nation, no ability to increase/ decrease influence/ population, no voting...

Just throwing some ideas around

[Kangaroo]

Aye they did, but when caught they'd be jailed, executed, deported, none of which is available here.

I also believe that stronger protection for a nation is needed. Perhaps in the form of punishment of some sort for those caught working against the crown.

This.

There are two problems,
The first:
As it stands there is nothing stopping nationals deliberately breaking terms relating to pacts, this in itself isn't necessarily bad, grown ups do that stuff.
The problem is that when they occur, even if the king/council is 100% sure of who the culprit is there is legitimately no way to penalise the individual.
To address this with National Diplomacy now a thing and pacts soon to be, there needs to be a way to show the other nation involved that the act was the doing of a rogue element and not a national direction.
My preference is to banish a player from the nation for a minimum period, call it 30 days. I am sure there are other ways of dealing with them, the key is to make it a) public and b) substantive.

The second;
There is nothing stopping an individual wilfully and blatantly attacking a nation from within using voodoo.
The fix is simple, make the casts that currently display the attacker, whether be default or by trigger (fame range) generate hostility at the same rate as attacking a player via ship does.
It doesn't even require (though it would be nice) the banish option to work.

If someone is clever enough to actually not get caught, unless it's an exploit good luck to them, but those dumb enough to do so should be punishable by the nation.
Diplomacy without a national justice system of some type is I feel destined to be a PITA

[Captain Jack]

Regarding the voodoo cards that will be regarded as aggressive, the list has been finalized here:
viewtopic.php?p=56688#p56688

Undercover cards are there but only at the case where undercover does not fire.
Conspiracy is not inlcuded there. It's an "espionage" card after all. No one can be certain who cast this. Therefore the nation officials have no way to penalize anyone.


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CDV, later on, country officials can already see through Treaties archive what replaced a treaty. However, I think you are right and perhaps we could change the message to something like this:
"This treaty has been replaced by YYY on day X,XXX"

How does this sound?

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There are a lot of options for future nation control developments. As more come in, the nations shape will change. Ultimately, they will be much like nations of the world today where the few will take advantage of the many and the many will simply agree to this because they will fall into the illusion created by the strong.

Before penalizing laws like Tax Levies come, or the ability to throw someone to prison, etc, we need to build stronger economies for nations. Economies that will be less dependable on NPC than today. Less dependable on will to help from those running the nation. Economies that will get a part of the trade income. Economies that will have specific necessary upkeeps to maintain national strengths. Once port buildings come, for example, nations treasuries will get more meaningful uses. After a point, people will be more dependable on nations than they are now. At that point, we will be able to add more member control to them that will actually be used enough to justify the development. Priorities are everything.


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Most people, are used to the presence of an ALMIGHTY nation, that can do almost whatever it likes to its subjects. At the age of Piracy, this was not really the case. Anyone with a ship could simply do what he wanted and get away with it. Of course, these individuals have been called Pirates and eventually have been hunted down, mostly to set an example for the rest.

Let's be open minded. We want to implement things that make sense. If you have an individual with a lot of ships sailing and you do not know where he is, realistically, you can't (for example) jail him.

Some of the actions asked here, I find them of totalitarian nature. I guess that this happens because when you picture the King, you picture him against the villager. But in this game there are no PC (players) villagers, there are only NPC villagers. If you would like to picture it in a more realistic way then you should picture the King against a powerful individual, who holds titles of nobility and has substantial power at his hands. If you do such parallelism back to the day, you will find current systems employed in the game perfectly legitimate.


Finally, the nation sets the formal diplomacy and then decides how strong it will back it through the usage of the Hostility Penalties law. What individuals do after this, it is not a problem of the country but of the justice system. Such Justice system exists with the Hostilities law.

If an individual constantly breaks the treaties, it is his problem. Not the nation's issue.

[Captain Jack]

An issue with treaties display has been fixed.

I think we can safely proceed to the next step now.

[Captain Jack]

Hostility Penalties law is now available. To use it in your country, go to Parliament -> Laws Office -> Adopt a new Law

Get the details here viewtopic.php?p=56688#p56688 and at the law description. Also check the improved Help File.

This law features early majority close (still under beta, so be wary in case anything goes wrong).

The voodoo part of the law, is not yet finished though. I will let you know through here once it is done.
Plunder and Skirmish as well as Citizenship loss Limit work fine.

[Most Lee Harmless]

Will the selection of nation missions targets be changed to avoid having friendly nations listed?

[Captain Jack]

Will the selection of nation missions targets be changed to avoid having friendly nations listed?

In short, no.

In detail:
-NPC targets are excluded from the law at this moment. This is also mentioned in the law description. This means that if you attack an allied nation there nothing will happen. If you attack a NPC citizen of your own nation, standard penalty will apply.

-The governors use Hostility ratings to choose targets. If someone has 400 hostility points and still a member of an allied state, then the Governor should not except such a person from the list. So, from first look, governors seem alright already.

What can be changed at Governors:
-Governors of nations with no hostility lists need to be updated to exclude friendly nations as right now, they will simply select from the notorious list.
-Alternatively, the Governors could pick of the list of an allied state, should such exist.
-The initial design is that players get to choose such targets and the current system will be supplementary/secondary to player choices. The initial design has not been prioritized yet but implementations like this one can help this come faster.

Ultimately, what mostly needs to be done, is the implementation of the Letter of the Marque. Such letters, besides whatever else is scripted in them, could also allow you to persecute players in the Governor's list without suffering from any penalties that originate from the treaties signed.

Letter of the Marque is not something that we discuss for the foreseeable future. The more we go deeper into this update, the higher its importance is getting. It seems to be the only reasonable way to deal with the various problems that are coming into the surface.

All of the above are important but until any is implemented, you will have to deal with this extra difficulty. It will not take long though.

[DezNutz]

There is no way to track pending treaties, at least not that I'm seeing. A treaty that has been approved by the council but is waiting for the other nation's response should be visible by some means.

[Captain Jack]

There is no way to track pending treaties, at least not that I'm seeing. A treaty that has been approved by the council but is waiting for the other nation's response should be visible by some means.

You already requested this. Be patient.
Rest assured that we have read everything in this topic.

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Here is the final aggressive voodoo list:
-Ambush
-Antagonize (if undercover fails)
-Assassin
-Blacklist
-Booty Master (if undercover fails)
-Call Leviathan
-Confuse
-Disfavor
-Fugitive from Justice
-Hostile Natives
-Hostile Waters
-Official List of Demands
-Propaganda (if undercover fails)
-Ravage
-Swarm of Worms
-Taxation
-Terrorize
-Thieving Magpie
-Time Spiral
-Vengeance of the Witch Doctor

We removed some obvious choices eventually, only to buff these cards (ie Call the Kraken, Sabotage, Fire Ship).
In general, try to be extra careful with the hostility penalties on voodoo until Letter of the Marque comes to avoid locking your nation citizens from attacking enemies.

The law right now will close on early majority and this can be handy to fix such issues.