Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

[DezNutz]

Here it is simple as I can put it, you believe buffs in the form of voodoo should exist however any other voodoo that does not aid you due to not having it or having the means to acquire it due to any distraction say in the form of techs lack of funds or whatever the case may be is bad. Is b.s. You can do the same damage with voodoo that the same Charles Vane does with the exact same cards he chooses to utilize.
As for reading comprehension show me one post where I defended voodoo for the sake of someone simply being a pirate. You can't. I have in the past defended pirates while even being attacked by them. Same with this new class labeled WD. The only person I know to truly claim that title is Admiral Nelson and guess what, he has no love for me and will harass me with the same voodoo everyone is griping about. But much like Ronald Reagan did after his attempted assassination who did nothing to regulate more b.s. on guns despite one being used on him.
I just feel if you want to pass on profit to cast and be a pain then do it. If you want to be a pirate then do it. If you want to trade then do it. But if you want to impede another game style with regulations while yours remains untouched you are a selfish non gaming grinch with no skills who wants everyone to be on equal footing thus eliminating different styles of play. I can name plenty of tactics I dont use because I do it different it doesnt mean the other way should be forced from the game it just means I have the choice to use it or figure another way to get the same results.
If you cant understand that then I will go back to looking at the girl who expertly shields her right eye just in the nick of time.

Wrong at your first sentence, I didn't say that the only voodoo should be buffs and that if it wasn't it was bad.

You assume, just as others do, that because I find issue with players that hold no ships and just cast voodoo, that I'm against pirates. Please tell me oh wise dman, when a player that holds no ships and casts a Hostile Natives or Fugitive from Justice on me, how can I cast the same cards against them with effect. Yes there are other voodoo that I could use, but in the end, I will still have lost more and spent more trying to counter a player that has a limited avenue of retribution. What real risk do they have. They have no trade routes, no ships to rebuild, so they likely have no gc in their purse. They may lose some voodoo and turns, which aren't difficult to recover, but they have effectively neutered a bulk of the existing voodoo from being used against them. Most of the voodoo is ship/fleet related. Please explain.

The suggestion I made was also made by Vane earlier in the thread. I solely elaborated more on the details than he did. There are plenty of voodoo that exist that can be turned into game features/functions, specifically in relations to naval combat. This would in effect phase out that voodoo, but its effect would be available via the new mechanism. Now there could be some alterations to the effects, but I would not want a pirates ability to be diminished nor do I want it made so traders have it easier.

There are obviously some voodoo that don't fit into the buff area, which is where I think voodoo should be focused. Just because voodoo should focus on buffs, doesn't mean there won't be or that I don't support voodoo for other things.

I am not a pro-trader or anti-pirate player. I consider myself in the middle. Yes, I enjoy trading and fully understand and accept that I could be hit and plundered. I don't want nor care for risk free trading, as at some point in the future, I will move out of a nation and play as a pirate for a few months. It is a pirate game, one should play as a pirate for a period of time, at least once. I try to make my suggestions fair and equal.

[Dmanwuzhere]

Here it is simple as I can put it, you believe buffs in the form of voodoo should exist however any other voodoo that does not aid you due to not having it or having the means to acquire it due to any distraction say in the form of techs lack of funds or whatever the case may be is bad. Is b.s. You can do the same damage with voodoo that the same Charles Vane does with the exact same cards he chooses to utilize.
As for reading comprehension show me one post where I defended voodoo for the sake of someone simply being a pirate. You can't. I have in the past defended pirates while even being attacked by them. Same with this new class labeled WD. The only person I know to truly claim that title is Admiral Nelson and guess what, he has no love for me and will harass me with the same voodoo everyone is griping about. But much like Ronald Reagan did after his attempted assassination who did nothing to regulate more b.s. on guns despite one being used on him.
I just feel if you want to pass on profit to cast and be a pain then do it. If you want to be a pirate then do it. If you want to trade then do it. But if you want to impede another game style with regulations while yours remains untouched you are a selfish non gaming grinch with no skills who wants everyone to be on equal footing thus eliminating different styles of play. I can name plenty of tactics I dont use because I do it different it doesnt mean the other way should be forced from the game it just means I have the choice to use it or figure another way to get the same results.
If you cant understand that then I will go back to looking at the girl who expertly shields her right eye just in the nick of time.

Wrong at your first sentence, I didn't say that the only voodoo should be buffs and that if it wasn't it was bad.

You assume, just as others do, that because I find issue with players that hold no ships and just cast voodoo, that I'm against pirates. Please tell me oh wise dman, when a player that holds no ships and casts a Hostile Natives or Fugitive from Justice on me, how can I cast the same cards against them with effect. Yes there are other voodoo that I could use, but in the end, I will still have lost more and spent more trying to counter a player that has a limited avenue of retribution. What real risk do they have. They have no trade routes, no ships to rebuild, so they likely have no gc in their purse. They may lose some voodoo and turns, which aren't difficult to recover, but they have effectively neutered a bulk of the existing voodoo from being used against them. Most of the voodoo is ship/fleet related. Please explain.

The suggestion I made was also made by Vane earlier in the thread. I solely elaborated more on the details than he did. There are plenty of voodoo that exist that can be turned into game features/functions, specifically in relations to naval combat. This would in effect phase out that voodoo, but its effect would be available via the new mechanism. Now there could be some alterations to the effects, but I would not want a pirates ability to be diminished nor do I want it made so traders have it easier.

There are obviously some voodoo that don't fit into the buff area, which is where I think voodoo should be focused. Just because voodoo should focus on buffs, doesn't mean there won't be or that I don't support voodoo for other things.

I am not a pro-trader or anti-pirate player. I consider myself in the middle. Yes, I enjoy trading and fully understand and accept that I could be hit and plundered. I don't want nor care for risk free trading, as at some point in the future, I will move out of a nation and play as a pirate for a few months. It is a pirate game, one should play as a pirate for a period of time, at least once. I try to make my suggestions fair and equal.

Confuse to start, or time spiral one of my personal favs but confuse is simple and cheap enough to keep someone even with help spending turns and voodoo to clear. At some point they will tire of that role or run out of voodoo or resolve the issue that started it and its at that point you can again make them pay. Not that they couldn't say continue just buying credits and voodoo but honestly imo that would get old quick if it were me. Sailors sailed for months for 1 battle, I would just remind you that in months all things change and no one stays a pauper and no one stays a king forever.
Long term games while bountiful in instant gratification its the long term victory thats the sweetest revenge or battle.

[DezNutz]

Here it is simple as I can put it, you believe buffs in the form of voodoo should exist however any other voodoo that does not aid you due to not having it or having the means to acquire it due to any distraction say in the form of techs lack of funds or whatever the case may be is bad. Is b.s. You can do the same damage with voodoo that the same Charles Vane does with the exact same cards he chooses to utilize.
As for reading comprehension show me one post where I defended voodoo for the sake of someone simply being a pirate. You can't. I have in the past defended pirates while even being attacked by them. Same with this new class labeled WD. The only person I know to truly claim that title is Admiral Nelson and guess what, he has no love for me and will harass me with the same voodoo everyone is griping about. But much like Ronald Reagan did after his attempted assassination who did nothing to regulate more b.s. on guns despite one being used on him.
I just feel if you want to pass on profit to cast and be a pain then do it. If you want to be a pirate then do it. If you want to trade then do it. But if you want to impede another game style with regulations while yours remains untouched you are a selfish non gaming grinch with no skills who wants everyone to be on equal footing thus eliminating different styles of play. I can name plenty of tactics I dont use because I do it different it doesnt mean the other way should be forced from the game it just means I have the choice to use it or figure another way to get the same results.
If you cant understand that then I will go back to looking at the girl who expertly shields her right eye just in the nick of time.

Wrong at your first sentence, I didn't say that the only voodoo should be buffs and that if it wasn't it was bad.

You assume, just as others do, that because I find issue with players that hold no ships and just cast voodoo, that I'm against pirates. Please tell me oh wise dman, when a player that holds no ships and casts a Hostile Natives or Fugitive from Justice on me, how can I cast the same cards against them with effect. Yes there are other voodoo that I could use, but in the end, I will still have lost more and spent more trying to counter a player that has a limited avenue of retribution. What real risk do they have. They have no trade routes, no ships to rebuild, so they likely have no gc in their purse. They may lose some voodoo and turns, which aren't difficult to recover, but they have effectively neutered a bulk of the existing voodoo from being used against them. Most of the voodoo is ship/fleet related. Please explain.

The suggestion I made was also made by Vane earlier in the thread. I solely elaborated more on the details than he did. There are plenty of voodoo that exist that can be turned into game features/functions, specifically in relations to naval combat. This would in effect phase out that voodoo, but its effect would be available via the new mechanism. Now there could be some alterations to the effects, but I would not want a pirates ability to be diminished nor do I want it made so traders have it easier.

There are obviously some voodoo that don't fit into the buff area, which is where I think voodoo should be focused. Just because voodoo should focus on buffs, doesn't mean there won't be or that I don't support voodoo for other things.

I am not a pro-trader or anti-pirate player. I consider myself in the middle. Yes, I enjoy trading and fully understand and accept that I could be hit and plundered. I don't want nor care for risk free trading, as at some point in the future, I will move out of a nation and play as a pirate for a few months. It is a pirate game, one should play as a pirate for a period of time, at least once. I try to make my suggestions fair and equal.

Confuse to start, or time spiral one of my personal favs but confuse is simple and cheap enough to keep someone even with help spending turns and voodoo to clear. At some point they will tire of that role or run out of voodoo or resolve the issue that started it and its at that point you can again make them pay. Not that they couldn't say continue just buying credits and voodoo but honestly imo that would get old quick if it were me. Sailors sailed for months for 1 battle, I would just remind you that in months all things change and no one stays a pauper and no one stays a king forever.
Long term games while bountiful in instant gratification its the long term victory thats the sweetest revenge or battle.

Ok so you prevent them from continued casting, the damage is already done. You have done no real damage to them in return and have wasted your own turns and voodoo and have accomplished very little.

Yes playing the long game does have it's benefits in waiting to seek retribution. I won't argue there, as I do the same. Just don't think that they won't do the same.

[Stan Rogers]

Bandaid-

Voodoo Curse
Flock of Ravens
Availability- Rare
Steals 10 voodoo curses from recipient if he has less than 1 active fleet.
(Not effective on players less than 1000 turns)
Unlimited Stacking.

[Dmanwuzhere]

Bandaid-

Voodoo Curse
Flock of Ravens
Availability- Rare
Steals 10 voodoo curses from recipient if he has less than 1 active fleet.
(Not effective on players less than 1000 turns)
Unlimited Stacking.

lol, not even a band-aid but I am sure it might get some spending going to get that card. A source of revenue if nothing else. I have seen some of the suggestions put up for voodoo and at least this one while laughable was meant to be. The inactive would be the new voodoo hut.

[Most Lee Harmless]

I'm still waiting for a definition of what a witch-doctor is : lots of talk about how evil they are, toxic, blah blah blah : but how do you, or the game, define them sufficiently well to distinguish them from other styles of game play which may be similar in mechanics?

[Admiral Nelson]

Bandaid-

Voodoo Curse
Flock of Ravens
Availability- Rare
Steals 10 voodoo curses from recipient if he has less than 1 active fleet.
(Not effective on players less than 1000 turns)
Unlimited Stacking.

This would target pirates too.

As a majority of the time, they do not have trade fleets.

So I could raid someone, steal all their ships. Then cast this on them 100 times?

Anyway, I thought you said the problem was voodoo? You fix this by? Adding Voodoo?

Think you need to go back to the drawing board with that one, with all respect.

[Stan Rogers]

Yea, I know. It was thrown out as a tongue in cheek 'fix'. But, you can't be a pirate or merchant if you have less than 1 fleet.

[Admiral Nelson]

Yea, I know. It was thrown out as a tongue in cheek 'fix'. But, you can't be a pirate or merchant if you have less than 1 fleet.

Yes you can; Pirates or Merchants often sell all their ships if under serious threat of loosing them. Its a well known strategy.

[Captain Jack]

I feel the need to pound some things first.

One claimed that the game needs to put primary focus to seafaring, like as if it is not what is currently happening. If we look however at the problem at hand, it is mainly caused by 2 voodoo cards which are Hostile Natives and Fugitive of Justice. These cards, all that they do is to expose your fleets. You still need stronger fleets in order to beat them in battle, before you can profit from them. If this is not seafaring first, then what is it?

Only a few know the real chain of events in sea fights. Let me refresh the memory of those and also en light the rest:
-In the beginning, there was no voodoo. The only way to engage enemy fleets, was from the danger gained through port movement. Once someone learned to avoid this, there was no possible way to attack his fleets.

-Then, we added voodoo. FoJ and HNs were the basic way to attack anyone. But hardly anyone liked that, especially when they came from a no-attack period. Therefore, such attacks were considered as an act of war. This is when the first "pirates" appeared - these few people who were ready to enter wars just to make some profit.

Once these people became proficient enough they started teaching more and they all started preying on their victims. As an extra story: The real strong players adjusted in a quicker manner and they managed to advance faster than the rest ( in terms of assets ). I clearly remember our skepticism when we were designing hideouts; there was a limited number of players with unspoken wealth. We decided to keep them out of the equation for the building costs. If we included them, hideouts would be a sport for the few.

Still, most encountered huge issues and the ships that were left sailing in Avonmora, became fewer.

-Then, we added Skirmish, as an extra way to attack someone's fleets. It was not an easy thing as many disliked even the sound of it. With proper limits, we introduced it. This resulted in more battles but most importantly in the psychology of the playerbase, which now was ready to accept spontaneous attacks as part of the game.

-We implemented many more things, in order to increase the number of fleet battles. One of them was to reduce sink chances, another to add technologies that improve payouts even from small enemies (scraps + piracy bonus). We revised skirmish rules to allow more attacks on people with larger fleets (some changes still pending). We added ships market, so everyone could replenish their ship counts easier and also sell their captured ships on a better price. We helped the seafaring part of the game a lot.

What is next though? Many of you, the most talkative ones, claim that Ship Abilities and more options in battle is the way to go. While I cannot disagree, I will tell you that it is still too early. A big part of those that want it are using few war fleets. What about the hundreds of trade fleets? Who will micro manage them? Or will they simply be food to everyone? Micro management does not work well in a big scale like we currently have.

Then we have this reported problem. In a few words, here is our stance:

-We have no problem with a player who uses voodoo and a single cutter to prey on a large merchant.
-We have no problem with the losses of the large merchant which are a fraction of their daily earnings.
-There is no response problem; everyone has something to lose eventually. Even a pirate with 1 ship has voodoo (get magpies) or influence (get propaganda) or warehouses (get official list of demands) or turns (lock him up). Do these sound expensive? Then invest your trading earnings to these cards instead of more trade ships or save them in order to use bounties when the time comes.

The problems that I can think of is what happens when multiple such players or a grieving player resorts to such a tactic against a single target. He automatically forces him to quit from his desired gameplay, as it is unwise to fight anyone with a few ships when you are holding hundreds, or forces him to constantly pay a lot for his protection. Ultimately this will lead him again to play with fewer ships. That's not something that helps the game:
-1 target less for all.
-1 unhappy player.
-Possibly 1 more as long term griefs are not a pleasant thing for anyone.

The major issue for the game though is the 1 target less. We need to increase healthy warfare and as targets grow less, it is not good for a series of reasons. Even true pirates would prefer not to repeatedly attack the same person.

I am not worried for the bigger picture as if "pirates" numbers grows to a level that cannot be supported by the current number of merchants, the whole issue will correct itself alone, as some will desert Piracy for trading, as Piracy will not pay as good any more.

Thinking all these, I can dully note that this is not a pressing matter but it comes as a follow up of similar discussion ideas. Therefore, it is worth all the current effort being done by everyone who is participating.

Given the change, here is a few things that you should avoid in Game Development forums:
-Keep on topic.
-Do not resort to quarrels.
-Do not insult anyone or any idea.


So we possibly now have a better definition of what needs to be addressed. It is not a witch doctor and it is not a pirate. It is hard to absolutely define either one, after all.

It is the lack of proper response to specific gaming styles.
If such response was proper (as it is already possible), it would also help in reducing grieving cases.

As in every post I make here, I will add a few new ideas:

1)
Create cards like Hostile Natives and FoJ that will target voodoo, turns and gold instead. They should be enchantments, and they should expose such assets based on time that has passed while they are active or once an action has been made. Once these assets are exposed, they should be lootable with anything else than voodoo. Fleets should act as a measure to defend these, so any player with a decent fleet should not be able to be affected by this. Although it should not be about ship or fleet numbers.

Of course, such voodoo will be purify,serenity prone (which means they will be able to be removed by the receiving player) but they should be as dreadful as FoJ and HNs are to big ship holders.

2)
Exploring further the aforementioned side affects, we could create a new card and create it only under certain circumstances. Ie, after X number of hours under FoJ or HNs while running 200 ships or more. This card could be anything of protective nature. For example, it could have 100% piercing, protection from Purify and Protection from Serenity and last 100 hours. As long as it is active, it could have the effect of target player cannot cast voodoo on you. We could even make it Magpie resistant and ban it from the market to ensure that only the victim can use it for the exact purpose.

3)
We could add backfire to FoJ and HNs. Once backfire happens, the spell will not only fail but the effect casted back to the caster does not have to be the same as the card. It could be a Time Spiral for example (ie Backfire 10%: Time Spiral). Before we weaken these two cards though, we will need to add more ways to stir fleet battles.