Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Huh » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:52 pm

Lana wrote:
If you take a role of witch doctor to protect your guild of ''those evil pirates'', I don't see toxicity in being witch doctor, on the contrary! :respect

But, if someone behave like witch doctor in someone's favor, but hiding his investor(s), (or just) trying to make ''chaos'' in Avonmora realm... that is the different story. :)

Everyone has reasons for doing what they do. If there are investors or sponsors then they have their reasons or they woudnt be wasting the cash. At least those are my thoughts I haven't reached a level of animosity that would have me throwing tons of cash out for 30 or 40 cards or the plundering of ships. But for those who do I am sure it makes sense.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Vane » Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:22 am

Broom wrote:It seems the assumption is that it is the players with masses of voodoo and no ships that force players to quit. I think this is incorrect.

To me it is a case of big established players using huge voodoo stashes on smaller players that don't have the capacity to fight back. It's simple bullying.

We don't have to brand players as witch doctors. All we need are game mechanics that will prevent bullying. Obviously some retaliation on other players should be encouraged but destroying players because they successfully raided your fleets for gold coin is simply not acceptable.

I think if we had limits on the types or number of voodoo we could hold players would have to give more thought to their inventory and would be forced to manage it rather than buying thousands of cards and just unleashing it on little folk. Smaller inventories would also make them more vulnerable to magpies. It could force players to actively use the inventories thereby spending credits rather than sitting on voodoo for months or years on end.


Its not always a case of bullying, often a smaller player hits the established player and he responds in kind to teach them he is not to be messed with. The players who have earned a large chest have this right as they have spent months building themselves up to a specific level of play. I do not disagree that some bullying can take place but its art of the game. If you look at life, there are people with great influence and wealth who can and do blackmail or push around the little guy, while many think its unjust and perhaps it just might be. It is reality and an avenue that shouldn't necessarily be closed off.

That said, I would not disagree with a limit placed on cards. This would not only close some of the gap between small and large players, but also require much more strategic play and thinking involved in building your arsenal. Team work would also be important, roles can even be designated in guilds where certain players stock certain cards.

If this were something to consider, I would go for a straight up limit to total cards held. No limits to specific cards and allow players to build according to their style. There would also need to be a method to "trash" cards you do not want that may never sell on the market to open room for what you do need. That would also allow a smooth transition. The cap could be implemented with a trash button and those with chest already over the limit could go through and reduce in size to where they need to be to continue building their desired chest.

5,000 seems an adequate level in my mind. But if you wanted a closer and much more challenging game then 2,500 - 3,000.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Captain Jack » Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:45 am

More great replies here, thank you everyone. I used a notebook while reading every single one of them.

Here are some things that I noted:
  • For every solution proposed, we need to find the weak side of it. Using ships count is just wrong as merely ship count means nothing and no one stops from working around the count.
  • The thought of ship value does not seem a good idea either as it limits players who wants to play with few ships. Why take this from them.
  • Risk should be proportional or else it cannot be a risk for all. For example, charging gold bars per cast cannot change anything to a well established player but means a lot to a newcomer.

I feel that the key part is to define the problem. We obviously want to limit toxic gameplay.
If we are to increase the risk, we need to define risk.

A witch doctor is different than the toxic witch doctor. It's the toxic Witch Doctor that we do not want. Still, such a player, may have reasons to become toxic and reasons to do it with voodoo. Therefore we return back in a general need to limit any toxic gameplay, in general. This is our objective here. Since you can currently become toxic only with voodoo, this is why we target witch doctors.

I can hardly find a solution with currents mechanics. We need to add new content to solve it;
-We are against limits
-We are against nerfing (making something weaker).

We only use those two above for quick solutions, till we come up with a better plan. I do not think that this issue is so urgent to go with limits or nerfing. The best way to go, is to create new content.

New Ideas
I really liked the backfire chance. This idea, as Slindur mentioned can be used elsewhere as well and we could do well to add it as a concept. We can implement it based on various dependable factors. This will not only give us more strategy immediately but it will also allow us more room for development. I can already think of possible uses in Ship Abilities. Generally, the concept of becoming stronger at one point with the drawback of getting vulnerable at another works well and we could add more things like this in the game.

The side affects as proposed by SHM sound like good path to explore further.

The special flag for Witch Doctors sounds promising but in the same time it sounds real hard to define all the needed metrics. Still it worths exploring. Like with the idea of having layers/levels to achieve as a Witch Doctor to probably unlock all kind of targets.

We could also use a "toxic" rating ( ie Karma/whatever name seems suitable ) and use it specifically to flag toxic players. This rating will be earned and lost by a)player votes (major importance), b)specific in game deeds (medium importance) and c)time (small importance). Rating could play a role in target ability (we can use total asset power index) so players that have a huge gap will not be able to attack each other, if one of them has a high toxic rating. Admins will be able to intervene and clear this rating or part of the rating, in case it appears to be illegitimate. Something along these lines, just early idea.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Most Lee Harmless » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:06 pm

Another possibility is :

A hard limit on the number of hostile casts that can be sent at one person : this can be daily or weekly.

To exceed that limit, a formal declaration of hostilities must be undertaken. This should be 'guild v. guild' and room for a statement of the grievance should be made.

This starts a countdown clock. Hostilities are time-limited (3-7 days?) and once ended cannot be resumed for a further 3 days. During this cool-down period, no hostile voodoo can be cast by either side upon any combatant.

At any point in the proceedings, both sides can agree a 'cease-fire' or end to hostilities.


This might address the 'nuisance' aspect of toxic play.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Vane » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:22 pm

Captain Jack wrote:We could also use a "toxic" rating ( ie Karma/whatever name seems suitable ) and use it specifically to flag toxic players. This rating will be earned and lost by a)player votes (major importance), b)specific in game deeds (medium importance) and c)time (small importance). Rating could play a role in target ability (we can use total asset power index) so players that have a huge gap will not be able to attack each other, if one of them has a high toxic rating. Admins will be able to intervene and clear this rating or part of the rating, in case it appears to be illegitimate. Something along these lines, just early idea.


I have concerns about the above mentioned (red).

I get the feeling many will use this as a means to get back at a pirate for raiding him. This would create many disputes and the Admins would need to get involved often wasting their valuable time. The concept is good however, and I think game deeds should be the primary reason for earning / losing "karma" points.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Black sparrow » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:48 pm

I once had a suggestion which included fatality into the equation. You can have a look although I admit, it needs a lot of refining to be usable:
viewtopic.php?f=16&t=958

Then bounties came to balance the equation. However, effective bounties can be really expensive over a long period of time.

Perhaps we should reconsider the option of fatality in the game. Perhaps a death that lasts a few moments. Then, powerful voodoo resurrects the perished one (once he clicks the resurrect button :xx ). The only difference will be the recording of their death, by whom it happened and when. It could come with a multi-month voodoo casting prevention between the two while the victim will also not be able to target anyone else for a few days.

If fatality sounds too much, we can expand this:
viewtopic.php?f=34&t=3595 (approved by the way)

Generally, a simple pause of voodoo warfare based on specific terms. One of these terms could be removal of all ships.

A needed addition, especially to the approved suggestion above is:
-You need to have at least 1 ship before you can cast any voodoo. So the lock will be possible.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Dmanwuzhere » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:49 pm

Backfiring voodoo and all kinds of proposed stipulations due to some not liking a players style and thus labeling it toxic is funny to me. Since I have been here I have heard griping about names, pirates, privateers and now voodoo. If you collect on a bounty and get smacked for it, why cry? If you skirmish someone regularly and they smack you for it, why cry?
Will bankers lose a random amount of gold for having gold in a bank not belonging to them due to that bank losing money? Or pirates have random cannons explode causing loss of ships? Will privateers have their nation randomly drop them for skirting so close to pirate behavior the odds catch up?
My point is simply that peoples style of play is a direct result of the goals they have in mind.
Send a Levi at Black Sparrow and watch your fleets meet Poseidons pets in great number. Send an assassin at Valur and watch Japan lose half its population as ninjas converge on your captain's list.
There are people who just want to trade and some who want to collect ships others go for skirmish and battle records and all of those goals are in direct relation with others goals and to find yourself on the receiving end of what you call toxic I call normal.
Even admin sinking my ships I did not call toxic, I just chalked it up to him tired of talking.
So many new things promised for the horizon, flagships, plantations, and a million updates and this is what we have come down to as a community?
I have lost capital ships merchant ships ports etc and I say to you the voodoo that plagued me was not toxic even if in some cases I took it personally, I was simply targeted for whatever reason and it was duly noted. One day I may get to return those favors if I have not already but I will not expect rule changes to protect me from labels I may want to place on other players because in the end It is a pirate game.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Banger » Thu Sep 07, 2017 12:52 pm

Dmanwuzhere wrote:Backfiring voodoo and all kinds of proposed stipulations due to some not liking a players style and thus labeling it toxic is funny to me. Since I have been here I have heard griping about names, pirates, privateers and now voodoo. If you collect on a bounty and get smacked for it, why cry? If you skirmish someone regularly and they smack you for it, why cry?
Will bankers lose a random amount of gold for having gold in a bank not belonging to them due to that bank losing money? Or pirates have random cannons explode causing loss of ships? Will privateers have their nation randomly drop them for skirting so close to pirate behavior the odds catch up?
My point is simply that peoples style of play is a direct result of the goals they have in mind.
Send a Levi at Black Sparrow and watch your fleets meet Poseidons pets in great number. Send an assassin at Valur and watch Japan lose half its population as ninjas converge on your captain's list.
There are people who just want to trade and some who want to collect ships others go for skirmish and battle records and all of those goals are in direct relation with others goals and to find yourself on the receiving end of what you call toxic I call normal.
Even admin sinking my ships I did not call toxic, I just chalked it up to him tired of talking.
So many new things promised for the horizon, flagships, plantations, and a million updates and this is what we have come down to as a community?
I have lost capital ships merchant ships ports etc and I say to you the voodoo that plagued me was not toxic even if in some cases I took it personally, I was simply targeted for whatever reason and it was duly noted. One day I may get to return those favors if I have not already but I will not expect rule changes to protect me from labels I may want to place on other players because in the end It is a pirate game.


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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Lana » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:54 pm

Dmanwuzhere wrote:Backfiring voodoo and all kinds of proposed stipulations due to some not liking a players style and thus labeling it toxic is funny to me. Since I have been here I have heard griping about names, pirates, privateers and now voodoo. If you collect on a bounty and get smacked for it, why cry? If you skirmish someone regularly and they smack you for it, why cry?
Will bankers lose a random amount of gold for having gold in a bank not belonging to them due to that bank losing money? Or pirates have random cannons explode causing loss of ships? Will privateers have their nation randomly drop them for skirting so close to pirate behavior the odds catch up?
My point is simply that peoples style of play is a direct result of the goals they have in mind.
Send a Levi at Black Sparrow and watch your fleets meet Poseidons pets in great number. Send an assassin at Valur and watch Japan lose half its population as ninjas converge on your captain's list.
There are people who just want to trade and some who want to collect ships others go for skirmish and battle records and all of those goals are in direct relation with others goals and to find yourself on the receiving end of what you call toxic I call normal.
Even admin sinking my ships I did not call toxic, I just chalked it up to him tired of talking.
So many new things promised for the horizon, flagships, plantations, and a million updates and this is what we have come down to as a community?
I have lost capital ships merchant ships ports etc and I say to you the voodoo that plagued me was not toxic even if in some cases I took it personally, I was simply targeted for whatever reason and it was duly noted. One day I may get to return those favors if I have not already but I will not expect rule changes to protect me from labels I may want to place on other players because in the end It is a pirate game.


Although I could be a little resentful (not personally but...), i have to admit, I totally agree with all of said.
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Re: Witch Doctors gameplay - manageable risk for everyone

Postby Bmw » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:11 pm

Dmanwuzhere wrote:Backfiring voodoo and all kinds of proposed stipulations due to some not liking a players style and thus labeling it toxic is funny to me. Since I have been here I have heard griping about names, pirates, privateers and now voodoo. If you collect on a bounty and get smacked for it, why cry? If you skirmish someone regularly and they smack you for it, why cry?
Will bankers lose a random amount of gold for having gold in a bank not belonging to them due to that bank losing money? Or pirates have random cannons explode causing loss of ships? Will privateers have their nation randomly drop them for skirting so close to pirate behavior the odds catch up?
My point is simply that peoples style of play is a direct result of the goals they have in mind.
Send a Levi at Black Sparrow and watch your fleets meet Poseidons pets in great number. Send an assassin at Valur and watch Japan lose half its population as ninjas converge on your captain's list.
There are people who just want to trade and some who want to collect ships others go for skirmish and battle records and all of those goals are in direct relation with others goals and to find yourself on the receiving end of what you call toxic I call normal.
Even admin sinking my ships I did not call toxic, I just chalked it up to him tired of talking.
So many new things promised for the horizon, flagships, plantations, and a million updates and this is what we have come down to as a community?
I have lost capital ships merchant ships ports etc and I say to you the voodoo that plagued me was not toxic even if in some cases I took it personally, I was simply targeted for whatever reason and it was duly noted. One day I may get to return those favors if I have not already but I will not expect rule changes to protect me from labels I may want to place on other players because in the end It is a pirate game.


Probably the best thing about this game that I've read.
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