Nation debts

[DezNutz]

Say i ran up a huge debt in taxes in the usa.. then i just decide to cuba and work under the table.. how would the US government get thier money from me?... why does there have to be a way to recover anything anyway.. its not like the nation ever had the money to begin with

Why don't you provide some constructive conversation to the discussion instead of trying to take shots aimed at myself and the USA because of some ridiculous vendetta you have.

[Malachi Constant]

Say i ran up a huge debt in taxes in the usa.. then i just decide to go to cuba and work under the table.. how would the US government get thier money from me?... why does there have to be a way to recover anything anyway.. its not like the nation ever had the money to begin with

Your tax debt was rather modest, just outside the range of the nations laws so that is not really the topic at hand. It leaves it one sided if people can leave a nation or a bank loan and ignore their debt yet the other party has no recourse. While it should be allowed to some extent, and nations and banks should expect losses and defaults, it should have some repercussions.

Rather than be able to just skip loans and taxes, join a new nation/bank, repeat. Why not some sort of Hostility gain with the "Establishment" that would prevent those from joining new nations or banks if they had more than 1 million debt with 3+ establishments (Nation and Banks).

The hostility would build as a reputation for fair dealing or skipping out on your obligations. Words spreads, hostility builds, banks and nations close their doors to you until your debts are settled to some extent.

[Mack]

umm, well i was not intending to make any cracks about my in game stats people.. i was implying this as if it were real life trying to point out my veiw on the topic.

[Mack]

Say i ran up a huge debt in taxes in the usa.. then i just decide to go to cuba and work under the table.. how would the US government get thier money from me?... why does there have to be a way to recover anything anyway.. its not like the nation ever had the money to begin with

Rather than be able to just skip loans and taxes, join a new nation/bank, repeat. Why not some sort of Hostility gain with the "Establishment" that would prevent those from joining new nations or banks if they had more than 1 million debt with 3+ establishments (Nation and Banks).

The hostility would build as a reputation for fair dealing or skipping out on your obligations. Words spreads, hostility builds, banks and nations close their doors to you until your debts are settled to some extent.

i think this sounds good

[Maha]

since AUTOMATIC stuff is out, Malachi Constant's ideas are out, as much as i like them.
however player initiated stuff is permitted. Nations could vote to put bounty on debtors. why hand it over to the banks? active debtors could be placed high on the nations 'most wanted' list, which is a nation tool not unlike bounty afterall.
the thing is that it requires player initiative. don't ask the gods to help you where you could help yourself

[Psychodad]

Going back up the thread, it has been stated that in the real, nations have no ability to seize or collect on tax debt. Ladies and Gentlemen introducing the greatest seizure organization in the world, THE IRS!

If you have assets in the US and piss them off, they can be frozen, seized and disbursed. Until recently, Iran had mega dollars that were frozen in the US and were earmarked to pay reparations to the families of the hostages from the late 70's. Then they released the funds back to Iran so they could build airfields for the Russian Air Force, thanks Obama. But I digress and am loathe to intro RL politics to this discussion.

Point is, if I am a citizen of Lower Slobovia and I intend to slip away and become a citizen of Upper Slobovia but I have debts owed to Lower Slobovia, I might be able to slip away but would not be able to take my assets with me, they would be seized and sold to cover my debts, further I would now be an outlaw in Lower Slobovia with all the rights and privileges associated with that lofty position.

I suggest that in keeping with no automatic seizure of assets prohibition stated previously by CJ, we prevent a player from leaving a nation if tax debt or even loan debt to a national bank (player banks under the nation flag?) until they go before the council and negotiate a settlement for all, any or none of the back taxes owed. If the departing player chooses not to wait, then they can leave but assets (gold, goods in warehouses located in the national ports, ships) will not go with. Further, the applicant to the new country would have to be approved by that nations council who would be apprised of their bad debts. Of course the scurvy dog could become a pirate. Maybe a percentage chance of being able to make off with ships in the night.

I am fond of the bounty system, I would suggest that it go a step further in that countries could issue to select players Letters of Marque, allowing them to pursue, destroy and plunder enemies of the state. I would suggest that the bearer of the LOM have no hostility assessed when carrying out their duties. The circumstances of the LOM would have to be a verifiable transgression such as debts owed or hostility against the country, but not just capricious annoyance.

[Haron]

I disapprove of such a system, psycodad. This IS an "automatic seizure" you are suggesting. There are plenty of ways for a council to handle tax issues. And there are many different nations, with different setups. For instance, there are nations that set taxes for all but the king to 250k pr ship, to prevent others from joining. There are those who deliberately choose a nation which many new players are expected to belong to to get tax income from those new players. And there are those who set the penalties really low, to avoid people being automatically deported even if they don't pay their taxes. In my opinion, no person should "own" a nation. With a 250k tax pr ship and automatic seizure, you could do that. And imagine entering such a nation my mistake - suddenly you own the nation more money than you have, and you can't leave without losing every asset you have. Not a good idea.

If a player doesn't pay his debts to the nation, he will soon be automatically deported from his nation, at least of the council has set the laws in an appropriate way. In my opinion, that is more than punishment enough. Should you wish to claim any debts "by force", then I say APPLY force. I had a player owing me credits once, and not paying on time. After a while he changed his mind and paid, though...

[Psychodad]

If you read it carefully, it's not auto seizure, rather an impedance to leaving. To clarify, if I wish to leave AND I have debt, then I am unable to leave until attempting to resolve with that nations council, if I choose not to resolve I can still leave, but risk losing assets and certainly getting a substantial hostility penalty which would drive the bounty/LOM.

As I understand it, no one "owns" a nation, rather it is governed by those who have worked themselves to positions of power. They can be displaced by enthusiastic individuals just as in real life. If the council is in power and chooses a direction for that country, that is within their power. Smart leaders balance taxes with benefits. If I become a citizen of a nation and do not like the tax structure vs benefits provided, I can leave. That's the intention behind taxes. I do agree that some nations and some leaders abuse that, which is why you can immigrate. Deportation is really more housekeeping than resolving debts.

Regarding new or ignorant players, there could certainly be a "free pass" for players with less than X turns played (this is already in place if I remember correctly) so a newbie could screw up at light speed for the first bit but just as in RL, eventually they have to be accountable for their actions. A citizen benefits from the what his nation provides while building up a debt, then not wanting to pay his debt, he leaves to become a drain on another nation. We create a culture of parasites who whine and complain when the nation doesn't provide for them all the while being unwilling to give back to their nation.

Losing everything, as you will come to understand in this game, can and will happen in a myriad of ways and if you are the "intelligent person" referred to in the tagline of the game, you will learn and adapt.

[Haron]

You still propose an automatic seizure of assets if you leave a nation and still have a debt, if I understand you correctly.

And by being "deported" I did not refer to the "deport" option in the game. I was referring to the fact that you'll automatically become a pirate if you're not paying your taxes for a long time. Sorry about the confusion. Anyway, I think this automatically turning you pirate is more than penalty enough.

[Psychodad]

Ok, I'll concede the point on automatic vs choosing an exit. But I feel the player should pay their debts or we do away with the tax system altogether (since it is automatically assessed) and make donations voluntary. That way we will protect the delicate sensibilities of players and not have any accountability whatsoever. Unicorns and Rainbows for everybody!