Fishing Ship - Dogger (Medium)

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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Most Lee Harmless » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:43 pm

As this suggestion seems to be somewhat lost in another thread and addresses most of the above points within a coherent overall plan I'm repeating it here :

Start :

My 1.99 centimes worth:

The issue is not which trade/war ship is best but that neither should be fishing commercially in the first place.

Realistically there were hundreds of different fishing vessels : each designed for specific waters and catches. The Dogger and Whalers were more like factory ships than anything else with smaller craft actually catching the prey and bringing it to them. The majority of fishing is inshore and carried out by small vessels. Deep-sea fishing where boats are away for weeks or months is a more industrial process and their vessels reflect that.

But for Avonmora I suggest the following compromise looking to keep the flavor but not over-complicate the stew with too many!

1: We keep the existing structure of fleets working in a specific port either selling or storing their catch there. They can still be lit via voodoo or carelessness.

I see little point in cluttering up the skirmish screens with them as being in port for bare minutes and returning to sea empty then any skirmish is going to gain little plunder. They will also displace more worthy targets given the current listing limitations.

2: Only the dedicated fishing vessel types may fish. No trade or warship type can do so.

3: All fishing is 'inshore' : fleets may not travel port-to-port but can only work in the port they are built , captured or purchased in. If a merchant wants to supply into a port in which they have no fleets then the catch must be transported there in regular trade fleets or they must build/purchase/capture new fleets there.

4: I propose the ship type already known as the Dogger be the dedicated fishing vessel. I also propose that a hefty Gold Bar premium be added to the build cost.

Type: DOGGER

Build costs:

Turns: 20 / Coin: 15000

Wood : 120 / Iron : 60 / Tools : 20 / Cotton : 80 / Gold bars : 10

MaxHP 40 / Very slow / Cargo 30* / Crew : 30 / Guns : 0

Every new level will add 5 cargo and cost the usual stepped increase plus 2 Gold Bars giving a maximum of 75 cargo.

Traits : Most will have little effect but the Extra Level and Extra Cargo ones will be valuable.

This ship will be expensive to build and max out but will return many years profitable service


5: I propose that to reflect the wear and tear of fishing such as damaged or lost nets that each fleet shall gain a percentage of damage per voyage. This damage will reduce effectiveness by an equivalent amount : i.e A fleet with 10% damage will take 10% longer to fill its holds.

Each fishing voyage shall have a base time of 2hrs.

This will be extended at the end of the 2hrs by an equivalent percentage of time to the %damage still on the fleet.

Each fleet shall gain 1% of damage on arrival in port together with 1 DP per arrival.

Damage may be repaired manually or via voodoo such as Royal Fleet Auxiliary or Emergency Call.

Potential income is variable on ship levels/damage/prices. But a 'perfect' fleet should manage 11x375 catch or about 4000 crates per day (allowing time for docking between voyages).

Hostile Natives and FoJ will act the same as on any other fleet.
Lit fleets will be displayed on the plunder board. Doggers can be captured same as all other vessels. The only difference is the new owner can only operate them in the port of capture. They can still be sold to the shipwright or market.

Damage voodoo such as Worms, Fireship, Kraken, etc, will act to extend the journey according to the level of damage inflicted on any ship in the fleet.


This will stop the 'allocate and forget' brigade ignoring them for too long and also provide an attack tool via Swarm of Worms etc. RFA will fix damage thus also providing an incentive to run more Brigs!

I await your -'s.


End repeat.

The above provides a good framework to which specialist officers, techs or voodoo can be bolted on at a future date.
Starting with this 'inshore' only method still allows for additional future ship types to develop 'off-shore' fishing such as Whalers, Trawlers or Kraken-Catchers.... which might be a fun occupation for the terminally suicidal.
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Sir Henry Morgan » Sat Jan 26, 2019 7:42 pm

I like this - it's not a tweak to patch the feature, it's a foundation to creating and building the fishing industry.

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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby DezNutz » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:14 pm

My thoughts on Danik's proposal.

Danik wrote:1: We keep the existing structure of fleets working in a specific port either selling or storing their catch there. They can still be lit via voodoo or carelessness.

I see little point in cluttering up the skirmish screens with them as being in port for bare minutes and returning to sea empty then any skirmish is going to gain little plunder. They will also displace more worthy targets given the current listing limitations.


I agree. I see no reason to change basic fleet, danger, skirmish functionality to accommodate Doggers. The existing functionality is sufficient. Only changes would be that Doggers can only fleet with Doggers (relates to your second point) and that Doggers require a different officer than trade route fleets.

Danik wrote:2: Only the dedicated fishing vessel types may fish. No trade or warship type can do so.


I can agree with this, as long as there would be a phase out period, or something where if a fleet is already set to a fishing route, it will continue to do so, until the fishing route is stopped. Once stopped, the fleet wouldn't be able to restart fishing.

Danik wrote:3: All fishing is 'inshore' : fleets may not travel port-to-port but can only work in the port they are built , captured or purchased in. If a merchant wants to supply into a port in which they have no fleets then the catch must be transported there in regular trade fleets or they must build/purchase/capture new fleets there.


Agree with exception. Doggers shouldn't be sellable on the Ships Market, so purchasing shouldn't be an option.

Danik wrote:4: I propose the ship type already known as the Dogger be the dedicated fishing vessel. I also propose that a hefty Gold Bar premium be added to the build cost.

Type: DOGGER

Build costs:

Turns: 20 / Coin: 15000

Wood : 120 / Iron : 60 / Tools : 20 / Cotton : 80 / Gold bars : 10

MaxHP 40 / Very slow / Cargo 30* / Crew : 30 / Guns : 0

Every new level will add 5 cargo and cost the usual stepped increase plus 2 Gold Bars giving a maximum of 75 cargo.

Traits : Most will have little effect but the Extra Level and Extra Cargo ones will be valuable.

This ship will be expensive to build and max out but will return many years profitable service


Doggers should have Gold Bar cost to build and maybe levels. That's about as far as I agree on this point.

I favor the original ship setup, with addition of no attribute points, no ship Traits, and 100% ship sink chance during plunder.

I could get with the Dogger being able to Level Up to a Max of Lvl 5, where each level (2-5) would provide a +5 fishing rate bonus per level. Lvl 1 Dogger would function off the base fishing formula and provide a rate of 23 per hour. Level 2 would be 28, Level 3 would be 33, Level 4 would be 38, and Level 5 would be 43 (the rate from the original suggestion with the bonus). Allows a range that starts equivalently with the rate of an LMM and exceeds the current top producer (Trade Galleon) when it reaches level 3.


Danik wrote:5: I propose that to reflect the wear and tear of fishing such as damaged or lost nets that each fleet shall gain a percentage of damage per voyage. This damage will reduce effectiveness by an equivalent amount : i.e A fleet with 10% damage will take 10% longer to fill its holds.

Each fishing voyage shall have a base time of 2hrs.

This will be extended at the end of the 2hrs by an equivalent percentage of time to the %damage still on the fleet.

Each fleet shall gain 1% of damage on arrival in port together with 1 DP per arrival.

Damage may be repaired manually or via voodoo such as Royal Fleet Auxiliary or Emergency Call.

Potential income is variable on ship levels/damage/prices. But a 'perfect' fleet should manage 11x375 catch or about 4000 crates per day (allowing time for docking between voyages).

Hostile Natives and FoJ will act the same as on any other fleet.
Lit fleets will be displayed on the plunder board. Doggers can be captured same as all other vessels. The only difference is the new owner can only operate them in the port of capture. They can still be sold to the shipwright or market.

Damage voodoo such as Worms, Fireship, Kraken, etc, will act to extend the journey according to the level of damage inflicted on any ship in the fleet.


This will stop the 'allocate and forget' brigade ignoring them for too long and also provide an attack tool via Swarm of Worms etc. RFA will fix damage thus also providing an incentive to run more Brigs!


I'm split on this one as well. I like the wear and tear damage idea. I disagree with a 2 hour base fishing time. The dogger in your setup would only outpace a TG under the current setup after it reaches level 5. I don't see a need for the existing formula to be changed.
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Most Lee Harmless » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:03 am

My reason for the 10 levels was two fold : to keep to the same build-format as other ships. I linked it to cargo capacity to encourage levelling up. Investment in the fleet brings extra income. It also makes the ships more tempting to steal. Currently a lvl1 TG fishes the same as a lvl10 TG so stealing a current day fleet is worth barely 5 times 40k... not even a credit for an entire fleet. But at lvl 10... that fleet is now worth 25-30 credits... the calculation changes.
I agree any change needs a handover period. I prefer the method which leaves fleets fishing but once halted that 'permission' ends. One side-effect of attacks is a halt so a successful ttack will also end fishing rights on old-style fleets.
The time at sea is open to debate. We needed a number to start with. I chose that one because I dont believe a lvl1 dogger should be more profitable than a TG. I reckon investment should be made to bring that about by levellling it up. I also reckon there should be roomm for specialist officers, voodoo, techs or whatever to add value but leave it all too OTT.
I also reckon it should be tradable on the market. Its a ship after all... thats what ship-building and markets do.
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Sir Henry Morgan » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:34 am

The foundation for the dogger ship is here. The levels be they 5 or 10 can be mathematically worked out. The issue for level 10 would be the naval combat - or lack there of, concerning the dogger.

As for battle, these are soft ships - if plundered or skirmished (due to mismanaged cargo), an automatic loss of a level, then, an additional level according to Plunder rules used for all other ships is also applied.. This will emphasize their totally non-combat status, giving the chance to lose up to 2 levels on the tail ship.

After a bit of pondering, it only makes sense to allow doggers to be purchased on the market. The ship market will be tricky, as doggers will be delivered to the port in which they were built. This means supplies will need to be moved and available in almost all ports. (The new warehouse feature aids this.) It may be easier to make the delivery of all ships that way rather than only one special ship. Whatever port the ship is in when put on the market is the port in which it is delivered when purchased. (That could be noted on the market screen.)

As for transition, I agree there needs to be a 'grandfathering' over. As dogger fishing fleets should out perform the old fishing fleets, eventually all should switch over. Perhaps a "Shipwright Special" can be offered for 2-4 weeks on a random basis - when an old fishing fleet comes in, where Shipwright offers to take old fishing fleet ships in on trade for doggers with a good deal for the owner. It might ease and encourage the change over.
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Most Lee Harmless » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:59 am

I think we do need to keep a coherent pattern with ships. Make an exception for one type and we could open the way to a different format for each type being argued.
I also think that staying within the current 10 level format makes adding new options such as Whalers or Deep sea Trawlers much easier. Those types will benefit from levelling up more than the Dogger will but lets keep it simple... 10 levels for all... what those levels give you can be another choice however.
I do like the deliver-where-built clause applying to the whole ship market. It adds a costings wrinkle : home nation ports do give a bonus after all.
I presume that any ship entered onto the market would be bound to the port it was auctioned at : this must apply to all ships equaĺly : built, sold, plundered.
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Kangaroo » Mon Jan 28, 2019 12:18 pm

Danik wrote:I think we do need to keep a coherent pattern with ships. Make an exception for one type and we could open the way to a different format for each type being argued.
I also think that staying within the current 10 level format makes adding new options such as Whalers or Deep sea Trawlers much easier. Those types will benefit from levelling up more than the Dogger will but lets keep it simple... 10 levels for all... what those levels give you can be another choice however.
I do like the deliver-where-built clause applying to the whole ship market. It adds a costings wrinkle : home nation ports do give a bonus after all.
I presume that any ship entered onto the market would be bound to the port it was auctioned at : this must apply to all ships equaĺly : built, sold, plundered.

Wouldn't this flag most players hieouts?
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Sir Henry Morgan » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:50 pm

With the new warehouse feature, you can get all the supplies you need to build a ship in any port so doggers can be built for any port.

Trade ships can still move port to port, so build in your best ship building port, move to another port and put it on the market.

If you still want to keep hideout hidden, it's doable
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby DezNutz » Mon Jan 28, 2019 3:19 pm

I still disagree with having the dogger on the market.

It's costs are minimal and as pointed out the new warehouse feature allows you to get all the supplies you need to build in any port.

Doggers are defenseless ships, as they have no cannons by design so the only Ship Trait that would have any value to them would be Extra Cargo, all other Traits would be moot. Which is why IMO, Ship Traits shouldn't apply, so there would be no added value from Ship Traits on the market.
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Re: [Review] Fishing Ship - Dogger

Postby Most Lee Harmless » Mon Jan 28, 2019 4:59 pm

The costs are minimal IF you restrict it to a single level build. I have prposed a 10 level ship with great benefits to the owner if they do level up. At level 10 the costs are no more minimal than a lvl10 TG or LMM... factor in the GB component and its not minimal in any sense.

I also dont like the 100% sink chance proposed alongside the single level craft. Makes it somewhat one-use only... get hit, say goodbye. That wont encourage take-up either.

I agree, and so stated in my original draft, that traits are not fully relevant to this craft. That said not all traits are relevant to all current ship types either. Still, extra cargo, extra level apply : as the ship is not actually required to be armed with cannon then levi assault and fire assault apply. Can be argued it would rarely engage but same applies to sloops, howkers and cutters so shall we scrap traits for them also?
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