Diplomacy: Nation change barrier

[Haron]

I see we have different intentions, Deznutz. You want to make national takeovers impossible. And if that is your intention, the your suggestion surely accomplished this.

I, however, see battles for national control as an important aspect of this game, and one I do not wish to destroy. I simply suggest it should be a little harder, and more expensive. As I have said earlier, this suggestion is meant to make belonging to a nation mean more; mainly with "wars and blockades" in mind. It is not a tool to destroy what I consider vital to the game, fighting for national control, but will also make such battles a bit harder. No-one should "own" a nation, the way they own a guild.

[DezNutz]

I see we have different intentions, Deznutz. You want to make national takeovers impossible. And if that is your intention, the your suggestion surely accomplished this.

I, however, see battles for national control as an important aspect of this game, and one I do not wish to destroy. I simply suggest it should be a little harder, and more expensive. As I have said earlier, this suggestion is meant to make belonging to a nation mean more; mainly with "wars and blockades" in mind. It is not a tool to destroy what I consider vital to the game, fighting for national control, but will also make such battles a bit harder. No-one should "own" a nation, the way they own a guild.

I don't know where you get impossible from. It is still completely possible to do even with my suggestion, just time intensive. The times I suggested don't have to be that extensive; however, since currently you can't be deported from a country until you are inactive for 33 days (30 days inactive + 3 days to vote) if seems fair that you can't be on the nation council or king for a time period when joining the nation.

[Haron]

No, it's not. The council can easily vote away the entire treasury in that time. Becoming king is a vital part of a national take over. Also: There are other ways to destroy those not in the council, for those who are there. Lots of pesky laws. So: The time delay must be before entering the nation, not after entering the nation, but before becoming Duke. You need the element of surprise once you enter a nation, and you must act swiftly.

[DezNutz]

Not really. TLT and Danik took over the US relatively quickly but took them well over a month to accomplish their plans. As well, you don't need to subvert a nation quickly to subvert a nation.

Your idea of limiting nation changes does the same thing as my suggestion, just doing it before someone gets to the nation.

Why would anyone want to change nations to subvert another nation if they are going to lose a chunk of influence and/or it takes several days to change nations?

And how does voting away the treasury not destroy the nation?

[William one eye]

I just jumped over by suggestion from another tread, I have not read this entire tread, I will do that when I have a bit more time.
I apologize if anything I say is redundant or has already been shot down.

I think nations should be easy to leave - anytime even if you are in mission progress
click a button - become a pirate - must be a pirate for 1 week ( or possibly longer)

you are warned that you will be stuck as a pirate.


I think a nation should be hard to join.

route 1 - you apply to the king and are voted in by the council - you start as a captain
- possibility of applying for a pardon - to lift pirate status - If it made sense from a time perspective
approved by king and voted by the council
- pardon and captain would not be the same vote they would be separate.

route 2
must either be a new player or have spent you mandatory time period as a pirate or be pardoned by king and council of nation you are joining.
step 1- apply for visa - waiting period - 24 hours - visa is approved as long as you do not have hostility with the nation
once approved you can choose to fly the nations flag or not.
you are subject to the rules and agreements held by that nation.
step 2 - missions to become citizen - should require a lot of small npc targets, npc quests or possibly some quests type activities - so experienced players cannot just move past quickly by attacking other players for rank points. The npcs and quests would burn more turns and take longer but will not hinder new players and it could provide prizes of coin, cards or influence that would help new players.
Prizes should be small enough that they don't benefit more experienced players. Quests should be designed to teach gameplay.
Step 3 at captain - you must fly the flag of the nation - the rest of rank up remains the same - in the event you are trying to join the country for political take over, quick progress should be allowed once you are required to fly the flag people will become aware of your presence.

once you are flying the nations flag you appear in nation member lists

those are my thoughts

William

[DezNutz]

I just jumped over by suggestion from another tread, I have not read this entire tread, I will do that when I have a bit more time.
I apologize if anything I say is redundant or has already been shot down.

I think nations should be easy to leave - anytime even if you are in mission progress
click a button - become a pirate - must be a pirate for 1 week ( or possibly longer)

you are warned that you will be stuck as a pirate.

-1 There are plenty of reason why not, but I'll give you one specific reason: BANKS. Pirates cannot enter banks. A player who is focused on trade and playing the game as a merchant should not be forced to change playing styles because he wants to change his nation.

I think a nation should be hard to join.

route 1 - you apply to the king and are voted in by the council - you start as a captain
- possibility of applying for a pardon - to lift pirate status - If it made sense from a time perspective
approved by king and voted by the council

route 2
must either be a new player or have spent you mandatory time period as a pirate.
step 1- apply for visa - waiting period - 24 hours - visa is approved as long as you do not have hostility with the nation
once approved you can choose to fly the nations flag or not.
you are subject to the rules and agreements held by that nation.
step 2 - missions to become citizen - should require a lot of small npc targets, npc quests or possibly some quests type activities - so experienced players cannot just move past quickly by attacking other players for rank points. The npcs and quests would burn more turns and take longer but will not hinder new players and it could provide prizes of coin, cards or influence that would help new players.
Prizes should be small enough that they don't benefit more experienced players. Quests should be designed to teach gameplay.
Step 3 at captain - you must fly the flag of the nation - the rest of rank up remains the same - in the event you are trying to join the country for political take over, quick progress should be allowed once you choose to fly the flag and people become aware of your presence.

those are my thoughts

William

-1 This again forces a player to be a pirate, a change in playing styles for an extended period of time. As well hostility points exist for reasons to prevent you from joining a nation that you have previously "attacked". This is usually a nation in the top 20 list; however, there over 200+ other nations that a player can join. So if you want to be a king so badly, find a small nation and start from scratch. The purpose of a barrier in nation changing is to prevent hostile take-overs from occurring almost instantly and thus creates some stability within a nation. It needs to be more difficult, but forcing players to be pirates is not the way to do it.

[William one eye]

I am a pirate - I chose to become a pirate - I changed my setup it is temporary - I will change back when I am able to join a new country,
I am not happy with my current situation - but it is temporary. If it was longer it would be a very strong deterrent for nation change.

maybe a nation transfer option where you can change nations that you are welcomed to could be possible - apply for citizen ship with the king and council and when approved you leave your present country and start in the new one as a citizen. I still think your hostility should prevent you from switching, however you could just have someone clear your hostillity

all of my suggestion increase the difficulty to change nations for experienced players,
and further reduce the ability for a hostile nation take over but does not eliminate it.

[Stan Rogers]

Unfortunately, none of the immediate routes suggested would work as when I want to apply to a nation with no active king or council, I'll wait a long time for approval.

Also, seems the purpose of this thread is to limit or make more difficult national takeovers. It is unreasonable to me because if a nation has a strong, active citizenry, a takeover is not easy no matter who you are.
If a nation is weak, takeover is easier. Nothing wrong with that.
I have been on both sides of this debate and although there is always room for improvement, no need to throw out the baby with the bath water in this case as it does work fairly well.
Admin made a couple tweaks based on observations of the last few takeovers and knows what is happening and where to apply change.

[DezNutz]

I am a pirate - I chose to become a pirate - I changed my setup it is temporary - I will change back when I am able to join a new country,
I am not happy with my current situation - but it is temporary. If it was longer it would be a very strong deterrent for nation change.

maybe a nation transfer option where you can change nations that you are welcomed to could be possible - apply for citizen ship with the king and council and when approved you leave your present country and start in the new one as a citizen. I still think your hostility should prevent you from switching, however you could just have someone clear your hostillity

all of my suggestion increase the difficulty to change nations for experienced players,
and further reduce the ability for a hostile nation take over but does not eliminate it.

I can understand the want to not be in a bad situation, which allowing players to move to a different nation without becoming a pirate should be an option. Forcing players to be pirates to change nations is not a good idea. Pirates by definition were people who fought against any and all nations for the benefit of themselves. Forcing a player to be a pirate to change nations doesn't make sense if they haven't performed acts of piracy. The game already prevents players from moving to nations that they have hostility with; however, there are ways around this by using specific voodoo. That's why the best means to limit hostile take-overs is to limit players from reaching the rank of duke and higher by being a citizen of that nation for a set period of time. That is the only legitimate way to do so. It keeps the option to overthrow a country but makes it more time consuming.

[DezNutz]

Unfortunately, none of the immediate routes suggested would work as when I want to apply to a nation with no active king or council, I'll wait a long time for approval.

I agree, it is easier to set a days as citizen limit for citizens before they can become a duke, governor, or king.