Plunder Formula tweak discussion

[Haron]

Next thing: The actual suggestion. I, too, have stated that I think the proposed suggestion would benefit pirates. Like I have said too many times, though, the problem is when you increase the percentage of gold stolen, and decrease the max amount. That makes the difference between a "minumum" defence and keeping lots of gold (making you lose the max amount) too small. So I think the maximum amount has to be increased too - not decreased.

CJ's "new" proposal, which basically is identical to the old proposal, except "pirates" have to study a technology to get THEIR benefit (a higher percentage stolen) and "merchants" having to study another technology to get THEIR benefit (reduced maximum pludered), will, in practice, produce the same result for a "high level" pirate against a "high level" merchant - except they now both have to spend lots of gold studying first, to GET these benefits. I think that it would be better to introduce this WITHOUT such technologies, but like I have said before, I think the best idea is simply to increase the maximum plunder amount rather than decrease it.

However, I think that if more "action" is desired in the game, there are other places to look than at the plunder formula (although it should be increased a little, I agree with that). I point again to my suggestion "wars and blockades", along with "nation change barriers". This will allow pirates to attack ports for gold and ships, and it also makes naval combat a part of fighting over ports. It also makes it more difficult for one nation to have lots of ports, I think. It makes ports more costly to hold, so it should go along with an increased benefit from holding ports. Perhaps tax BOTH when buying /selling from ports (not only one), a higher tax from NPCs, and a duke bonus to "party" cards. I realize that this is a rather radical suggestion, but I DO believe it would add more action to the game, and make the game more interesting to everyone.

[Haron]

Oh, and one more thing: Please, don't change the "advanced piracy" so that the attacker gains gold from the game, and not the target. As it is, these cards are nice when trying to steal ships (although the max percentage could be higher), but getting the gold from the game is much less valuable.

Also, it feels very wrong that gold is "generated" from skirmishes and plunders, as it would be if this card is changed. That goes for the "piracy" technology as well, by the way. I realize that changing that so that the gold is stolen from the target makes it WAY too powerful (too easy to steal ships), but I still think that it's bad to have gold "generated" from plunders. Gold should be generated from cities (tax and such), trade, and from making goods (today only fishing, but I see every resource being made by the players in the future - oh, and it should only be possible to make resources in ports that sell them today, so that moving goods by ship is still necessary, but that's yet another story), but not from piracy.

[Stan Rogers]

Tie the plunder into the total fleet value instead of the trailing ship.....

Or just make it a random ship in fleet ransomed. Much easier and allows for more luck

Both ideas are the instant death of fleet arrangement strategies which is not something good for the game.

I am not so sure the option by Hawk would change fleet strategy very much as regardless of the plunder profit gained, if I am to be ship plundered, I would still want the least expensive ships to take the brunt of levi attacks against me. Of course this is currently the preferred method of fleet stacking by more experienced.
This could also impact my gc in hand that I carry but that would remain to be seen after having a better idea what losing a battle would cost me.

Skirmish is definitely too low a payout for DR gained and turns spent. Haron ideas have merit but to get to any lvl at all entirely by skirmish, with the price of hideout and the price of the tech needed, it still remains a very steep hill to climb for anyone but the most wealthy.

Remember , hideouts were for those who are already earning 1M/day. A very tall order for those who are trying to plunder and skirmish there way to hideout technology.

I do like the skirmish danger formula presented of first hit gives you 2 danger and then 1 danger each subsequent hit. I don't think it is enough to earn your way to that 1M/day mark without supplemental income means through plunders or inactive farming or NPC farming or treasure hunting but it would help.
Drop the price of Hideout ? you may have to if most new features are going to be tied to having a hideout. Of this I am not in favor but as mentioned, you may have to mainly from the outcry of those who have not made it to that 1M/day benchmark.

[Crackedcubes]

It's all very interesting....sounds like we are in for some sort of higher plunder amount or increased skirmishes + skirmish gold.. Ultimately, this will result in heavily armed trade fleets. This will turn into an ever escalating arms race. traders will exchange that lead LMM for Sotl or Large Frigate or two, giving up cargo for peace of mind...... Is that really what admin is looking for...no.....remove or decrease the turn costs for skirmish and/or plunder and reduce DP incurred and I'll happily convert part of my trade fleet to a war fleet and do battle on the open seas with all those pesky pirates and richy rich traders!

[Stan Rogers]

It's all very interesting....sounds like we are in for some sort of higher plunder amount or increased skirmishes + skirmish gold.. Ultimately, this will result in heavily armed trade fleets. This will turn into an ever escalating arms race. traders will exchange that lead LMM for Sotl or Large Frigate or two, giving up cargo for peace of mind...... Is that really what admin is looking for...no.....remove or decrease the turn costs for skirmish and/or plunder and reduce DP incurred and I'll happily convert part of my trade fleet to a war fleet and do battle on the open seas with all those pesky pirates and richy rich traders!

This is the current goal of every trader to have ships that need all but the very finest ships Avonmora has to offer in order to be plundered or skirmished. When Spanish Galleon improvements are at lvl 20 and the trade fleet is 5 Flag Galleons carrying 500 crates of goods, I challenge anything but the best ships to plunder.

So, nothing new there. That always has been a 'given" Price makes it prohibitive so traders use what they can afford.

[Crackedcubes]

.remove or decrease the turn costs for skirmish and/or plunder and reduce DP incurred and I'll happily convert part of my trade fleet

What part of that statement constitutes "nothing new" Stan???

[Haron]

I agree with Stan. There are definitely ways for traders to defend themselves, but the point is that it's usually more expensive to employ such defences, than just accept that one is getting skirmished and plundered every now and then. And, of course, the "use expensive ships" strategy has other disadvantages as well.

[Stan Rogers]

. Ultimately, this will result in heavily armed trade fleets. This will turn into an ever escalating arms race. traders will exchange that lead LMM for Sotl or Large Frigate or two, giving up cargo for peace of mind......

This part

[Shadowood]

It's all very interesting....sounds like we are in for some sort of higher plunder amount or increased skirmishes + skirmish gold.. Ultimately, this will result in heavily armed trade fleets. This will turn into an ever escalating arms race. traders will exchange that lead LMM for Sotl or Large Frigate or two, giving up cargo for peace of mind...... Is that really what admin is looking for...no.....remove or decrease the turn costs for skirmish and/or plunder and reduce DP incurred and I'll happily convert part of my trade fleet to a war fleet and do battle on the open seas with all those pesky pirates and richy rich traders!

This is the current goal of every trader to have ships that need all but the very finest ships Avonmora has to offer in order to be plundered or skirmished. When Spanish Galleon improvements are at lvl 20 and the trade fleet is 5 Flag Galleons carrying 500 crates of goods, I challenge anything but the best ships to plunder.

So, nothing new there. That always has been a 'given" Price makes it prohibitive so traders use what they can afford.

The pirate in me would love to see 5 flag galleons in a fleet. I understood what you were saying though Stan. It would take large Frigs or SoLT to take them down.

[Crackedcubes]

.remove or decrease the turn costs for skirmish and/or plunder and reduce DP incurred and I'll happily convert part of my trade fleet

What part of that statement constitutes "nothing new" Stan???

Again....Stan---what part of the statement identified above constitutes "Nothing New"?