TRUMP 2020!

[DezNutz]

You must think you are so swift. You must think that you have proven me wrong, thus an idiot.

Notice that there are many people posting here who are right on the spectrum, and I'm pretty much the only one on the left. You're not more correct than me, your voice is just louder. I garunteed you that you wouldn't stand a chance by yourself against 5 leftists.

Nope. Your assumptions are just getting you deeper down the rabbit hole. I don't have to think that I proved you wrong, because I don't rely on feelings to back up my statements.

You haven't even begun to scratch the surface of the world around you. Reality is far from the utopian leftist viewpoints that you cling to. Dreaming of everything and everyone being equal in all aspects of life, being the same, without pain and suffering, without hunger and famine. A society where "hate" and "oppression" are things of a decadent past. These are wet dreams of stupid people. People that think that their feelings matter. People that don't understand that evil has no bounds. People that live by "good" intentions, that can't see the road they are paving is lined in evil. Time will tell if you open your eyes and decide to stop being a slave to political ideology and feelings. You will either grow up and see the world for what it is or continue to live in the land of make believe.

You can guarantee nothing. Why would it take 5 leftists? Does it take that many to surround someone and scream them down? Can your viewpoint not stand on it's own? Must be hard to counter arguments with just your feelings.

[Meliva]

I wouldn't say that those are dreams of only stupid people. Overly Optimisitc, Naive, and some folks who dream of things they may want even if they know it isn't possible.

I do agree that such a thing isn't possible-not without some sort of miracle technology even then it's doubtful. Though I do wish we could live in a world where everyone had ample food, a decent home, and little pain and suffering. Ultimately though, that's just a wish, and I know it is unlikely to ever happen. Certainly not in my lifetime anyway.

I will also say that I don't think we should want a world that is completely free of pain and suffering. I think that the bad moments in life helps to appreciate the good even more. I've known folks who have had super easy lives and take things for granted. I feel like that's a major issue with many young folks today.

Ultimately though, I do agree with most of your points Dez. I do think it's fine to dream of a better world, and wish for things that may not happen, so long as you remember to focus on what you can make better, and not just waste time on dreams and wishes.

[Leo the Conqueror]

I also agree.

But you misunderstand greatly what I am saying.

The ideas that I support can and have been done successfully in other countries, so I know it's not impossible.

And I would argue that naive optimism is still better than educated pessimism. I know that sounds stupid, but pessimism doesn't create new ideas or promote progress. Instead it filters out ideas. It's not necessarily bad, but just like everything else, there is such thing as both too little and too much pessimism

[Haron]

And I would argue that naive optimism is still better than educated pessimism. I know that sounds stupid...

Naive optimism: "I think I can jump over that chasm!"
Educated pessimism: "I know I'm not able to jump across that chasm."

Anyway, I'll take educated realism any day, thank you very much

[Meliva]

If someone asked you, can it rain rocks, you would probably say, no, that's impossible. However there is a planet we discovered where that can happen. Now does that mean it can rain rocks here? No, of course not. Just because something is possible and can happen in one place, doesn't mean it can happen in another.

Certain policies, and ideas are the same. Something that is done in Europe, and works for them, doesn't mean it can be done for the US and work for us.

Also, A lot of your ideas and beliefs based on what I've seen so far, are more or less things that treat the symptoms, but doesn't cure the disease. A lot of socialist policies are like that. Welfare, Affirmative Action, Food Stamps, all these things are at BEST treating symptoms. Which while not a bad thing, is not a good option long term. I would prefer actions taken to cure the disease. Some folks can't afford to buy food? Well give them food stamps short term, but try to make food cheaper, and more jobs available so that they CAN afford food in the future. Minorities have trouble getting into college? Well try to make college more affordable, and improve the education system.

Also, naïve optimism is far, FAR worse then educated pessimism. The road to hell is paved with good intentions. A lot of ideas that are done for good intentions can have DISASTROUS effects. Educated Pessimism even if what you claimed is true that it may not give new ideas, help get rid of a lot of the crap ideas that naïve optimists put forward that could do massive harm. Also, Educated Pessimists are not magically unable to give ideas or promote progress-they just consider a lot more factors before they do so. I like to consider myself a pessimist- but If I hear a well thought out plan, I'll gladly support it. Now how about you and other naïve optimists think a lot more on your ideas before just slinging them forward.

[Leo the Conqueror]

You act like there is no plan for how any of these things will work. There is. Most of them are pretty damn well thought out, and some would take it as an insult to say that it isn't. I can't speak for a lot of these plans because I didn't invent 'em.

Do you know all the details of how Trump's healthcare plan works? Or how the middle east peace agreement works? I bet not. I don't have all the answers, but I guarantee you that a lot of the things that you call "impossible" or "impractical" are much better thought out than you give them credit for.

Every single plan is going to have flaws. Most of the ideas you support have flaws that you don't even think about. There are ways around some of the flaws. There aren't on others.

Give some of these ideas a chance.

[Haron]

If someone asked you, can it rain rocks, you would probably say, no, that's impossible. However there is a planet we discovered where that can happen. Now does that mean it can rain rocks here? No, of course not. Just because something is possible and can happen in one place, doesn't mean it can happen in another.

Certain policies, and ideas are the same. Something that is done in Europe, and works for them, doesn't mean it can be done for the US and work for us.

That's quite some analogy, Meliva. I think that is stretching things waaay to far. If something is possible, it's possible. Maybe only under certain circumstances, like you say. But the difference in circumstances between nations are not as fundamental as the difference in circumstances on earth and on another planet. Or for things on quantum mechanical scales and huge scales. Or the differences in Sahara and Antarctica, for that matter.

The differences are mainly cultural. It may mean that in order for something to be possible - or maybe for it to have a positive effect - there may be underlaying things that need to change as well. Cultural effects or legal issues, perhaps. But it would still be possible. Just more difficult. But not as difficult as, say, having a lasting ice sculpture without any form of power supply in Sahara.

[Leo the Conqueror]

(It can and has rained rocks on Earth)

[Meliva]

A bad idea, no matter how thought out or planned will remain a bad idea. A lot of your ideas are bad. A lot of treating symptoms, but not trying to find a cure.

No, I don't know all the details of those examples. What's your point? That's classic shifting the focus. Instead of talking about the ideas and plans YOU support, and defending them, you instead try to shift the focus onto another matter.

Mel-"LM, those protestors are tossing rocks into the shops and looting them!"
LM- "well look at that man with the Maga hat-he's jaywalking!"

Yes, most plans will have some flaws. Some ideas will have downsides. That's why it's important to work on them to reduce them to as little as possible and so that it will do far more good then harm.

You seem to blindly think socialist policies will do more good then harm. You blindly say that real socialism has not been tried. You blindly claimed Scandinavia were socialist. Now you say that you can't speak for any plans that you didn't invent.

No. I won't give any idea a chance, until someone can convince me that their idea is actually well thought out, that any potential consequences or downsides has been thought about, and either figured out how to avoid or mitigate, and that the idea will do far more good then harm.

If I am not convinced, then I won't give an idea a chance. Look at all the failed socialist states where countless people lost their livelihoods and their lives because they gave a bad idea a chance.

[Meliva]

(It can and has rained rocks on Earth)

I assume you refer to way back when earth was a magma planet, and not present day earth. Rocks do not rain on Earth in present day.

Unless you count meteor showers, or some drunkard tossing rocks.

Also, yes that example was absurd and overly exaggerated. I do enjoy that fact however, and since a lot of my more mundane examples seem to be ignored I decided to try a very exaggerated one

Edit- also when I refer to "raining rocks" I was referring to it being actual rocks raining as if it was water-same process just different substance.

So that means rocks heating up to a liquid, then to a gas, then cooling, and coming back down as solid. Just like water evaporates and comes down as rain.