Trading/Shipping Companies

[Captain Jack]

So from what i read, and correct me if i am wrong, the fleet remains with me, i maintain all risk involved in the fleets regarding my own purse if its plundered and risk the loss of ships.

Scenario:
If my fleet earns 50k per day average, and i maintain the risk, i want at least 75k or more per day for the company to hire it. If that is the case, and the fleet earns the company the original 50k, what company would ever hire my fleet?

Will companies get a discount on crates purchased to increase per fleet profit? How will this be managed?

Yes, the fleet owner keeps all plunder related risks. However, we can change this with insurance. A Trading company should be able to negotiate such insurance with banks. While this can be available to individuals too, you have to take in mind that companies will be owned by multiple players.

So, if you are a pirate and you participate at a trading company, why should you attack fleets owned by your own company? It creates a new perspective where besides guild, nation and friends interest, company interests are also raised.

There is also more. Like how everyone treats newbs with large trading fleets. There is much sympathy which reduces available targets. When Sympathy is replaced by common interest, things will be more balanced and hopefully more interesting.

Voodoo that light up specific company fleets of a player could pop up. For example, you want to attack Captain Da Vinci but he runs fleets of your company you do not want to expose. Well, you could probably modify your Hostile Natives card before casting it. Through witch hut, who knows.

In general though, it might seem like unneeded to some advanced players but it surely be worthwhile for newcomers, who pull a lot less than expected on running fleets. Either because they do not know how, or because they lack the time or because they lack the right pacts or because they get attacked too often.

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Looking at this from the company perspective, the company will also have reasons to hire your fleet.
First of all, for the lack of risk. The company pays per day and keeps the warranty if the fleet cannot continue. Plus, they will not pay the time that the fleet remains immobilized.

Secondly, for purpose. Purpose can be created for a lot of things, mostly for plantation management, goldsmiths and shipwrights right now but also for Port Buildings later. Companies will combine the Contracted Shipping idea in some -still unknown- form. Contract Shipping is nearly impossible to implement in a working way that will justify its development time. With Trading Companies, we can make it worthwhile and effective for gameplay.

Another purpose will be to organize newcomers and make them produce wealth. Or exploit them. Or make sure your loans are paid. A lot of purpose options exist.

Companies should not get any discount different than what a top player already gets. Like the Duke bonus for which it will have to pay a nation.

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All in all, it is a feature that will unlock a lot of possibilities and it will incorporate some great ideas that are hard to implement without it, like contract shipping and trading pacts.

[Captain Jack]

The idea received an upheaval in design. Please only read FIRST post and then continue from here.

In particular, the highlights are the following:
-Ships are no longer owned by the players but by the company.
-Every fleet has its own treasury which is used for all activities (plunder, trading, etc).

The idea needs more shaping. For example, some of the company's procedures could be scripted and not be manageable by the CEO. This will require less effort to run a company.

The reason we want such a feature, is to flood the seas with more ships that we currently have, thus creating a greater headache in how to manage all this data

The actual reason is to add a new dimension to both trading and attacking. We can give everyone the ability to fight more by using the war fleets he truly desires without having to also carry to his purse a ton of trading fleets for survival. The company can have them instead.

One of the most obvious challenges we will have for this, is the way to ensure that Companies are not owned by a single person. Therefore we will need to come up with plans in how to enhance collective membership on these companies.

[Most Lee Harmless]

The logical structure would be for a player, myself fir example, to anniunce the formation of a company : Danik Trading Inc. I would act as the CEO taking decisions how to operate. Other players would buy shares in the company : firstly to provide operating capital and secondly to draw a share of the profits. The shares could be tradable between players. Obviously noted traders would draw more investors, less well-known might have to offer bigger dividends to draw investment.

It might be useful to actually operate the company under its own account log-in. This would separate it from the CEO's own account. Then the company needs to operate under its own steam, generating its own income and building its own infrastructure.

Another approach is to make the account more of a guild-type arrangement with shareholder members with voting powers aligned to their share-holding. This could open the way to hostile take-overs or mergers.

Just an idea.

[Psychodad]

There can be further options we can consider:
-Companies could possess warehouses (perhaps at different price than players).
-They will not be able to used voodoo of course on this warehouse.
-However, this warehouse will not be targetable by Official List of Demands
-Company paymetns will be with the send payments system. Which will not mess with the player hand. Right now, it can be hard for someone to manage his hand in a fine way.
-Someone might want to run trade fleets but not have the time for it, finding right routes, etc.

I am sure we can always come with extra ideas to make this not only worthwhile but also immersive.

Will the company warehouses work the same way player warehouses work? Cost to build and expand?
Will there be voodoo benefits, such as warehouse tycoon etc, allowing decreased cost to expand, decreased cost of purchase of local goods etc?

Also, can we invest our personal assets when forming a company, similar to an IPO?...Player owns a large fleet of trading vessels, warehouse system, etc. Those assets get transferred to the corporation and benefit the company going forward. Players who wish to benefit from the experience/assets of the CEO can purchase shares.

[Whitcomb The Feared]

sorry but on companies i totally disagree !

We are playing a pirate games of 17-18 century ! why do we have now a company system with shares and buying shares at the stock market as we are in 2019 ?! i joined to play pirate life, not to play a stock market game.

First at all, trading is a matter of individual game. But still needs activity. If now we set a company which will play in our behalf and provide us profits, where is the sense to trade ourselves ? companies will just trade on the same routes we would trade ourselves, and if you put also a bonus of more profit, it will be more profitable to trade through the company than individually.

Second point, the company will firstly help veterans who have huge savings. they will invest in like a "multi account" where to restart new fleets with the help of many (maybe even restarting from 1 captain costing nothing compared to the 10'000 captain they would need to buy for their next ship). Those veterans would be able to build another huge fleets and making much more money out of nowhere.
Trading is SUPER EASY and can't bring negative returns on investment, meaning that you are stupid if you set a trade route where you buy at an higher price than the selling price it's why i don't understand why adding a company ... it will just destroy individual game.
And overall it doesn't even induce newborns in understanding the game, they enter and they give money to the CEO (for sure an expert) who will manage the fleet at the best of his capacities to provide max benefits.

Third, are we playing pirate and merchants in the 17-18 century or the investor game of 2019, where comfy sit on my couch i can buy stock options from the NY stock market and living in London, operating by my company situated in Hong Kong ? it is what i meant by phisicality in a previous post, we aren't gods in this game, where the money flows in the air, not plunderable, and going to virtual companies which will provide you benefits wherever you are on the map. what is the sense ?

Fourth, i am newbie in this game and i have already problem to understand the difference between a nation and a guild, now imagine to add in game a new feature: the company ! so at the moment i am spanish and i was at war with isle of man, some guys playing for IOM are in my same guild so technically i can't skirmish them (but why should i if they are part of my guild ?). so now imagine there is a company which provides benefits to all the shareholders, so i would never harm my CEO or other shareholders or i would lose profits. so at the end we just push the game towards an automatic trade system where people just trade automatically and join twice a day (what i actually do, cause my fleets make automatic money).
What would be the sense of that ? just make the guild becoming the company and we remain on a game with 2 entities (guild and nation).

fifth, the game should be based on the piracy's life. but at the end it is mostly an automatic trade game where it's just a matter of clicks. if now - as a newborn - i start plundering, i will have so high danger that everyone will be able to plunder me back. i skirmish and i gain 2000, with high danger they plunder me and i lose 30'000 .... result ? i don't plunder anymore. at the moment my only way to plunder and making money is by plundering newbies (more newbies than me) and winning some money ! but if now you create a system where they don't even need to have ships because there will be a CEO who will trade for them, who a newborn will be able to plunder ? nobody nor veterans with sotl nor newborns who will invest in safer investmets and higher returns on investment.

So ... this is why i don't understand why adding the company system

[Most Lee Harmless]

Google 'Merchant Adventurers' : you'll find the company system predates your golden age of piracy.

[Psychodad]

Check East India Company

[The Lamb]

We do need more ships out there one way or another!!!!! I still maintain that if you want people to get more ships its a multi point strategy:

1. It costs me about 20mil+ just to add an extra fleet with my tech at 19.... thats a hard one to swallow, if you actually do the math, what is the payback on a fleet that costs 25mil with officers and upgrades with a 60k p/day avg? 416 days before that fleet sees a profit. not much incentive to get more fleets on the water especially when you look at number two.

2. I still think the cheap easy cards like HN's should be cast per port not on for every port in the world. You have a handful of people that for no reason and with no real recourse can cast 3 HN's and destroy 100 fleets at a cost to the trader. There is no real cost to the attacker. That means that some of those who want to trade dont see the value in trading knowing how vulnerable they will be. I know, some lazy people will use the old cop out "its not traders glory", but its hard work to build up as a trader, it should be at least equally as hard to "light up" someone up.

How hard is it to take 5 fleets watch the plunder boards when you log in and do a few skirmishes, then cast 5 cards, brag and log off. I tried it, it was boring as %$#@, i have much more respect for those who attack AND have something to loose as well. Those are the good players! Pirates need traders, this game doesn't have the mechanics for real ship on ship/ship on port battles yet.

One other thought, not all trade routes should make money. Some should zero out or worse, and yes i know we discussed that in "events", but traders shouldn't be lazy either. Some of use have spreadsheets to check profitability of routes, we should have to change routes in search of profits not just set and forget.

You want more ships, then fix how easy it is to obliterate the existing fleets. It was hard for pirates back in the day, thats why there weren't many that were successful.

As far as the company idea, why not just add the function to existing guilds instead of making a new feature. Guilds have the structure already, just have a buy in for guild members with the same type of mechanics (upkeep, tax/corruption, increasing costs per fleet, and tech for what these ships can do..transport immigrants, security, basic trade, etc...) I would also put caps on how big it can be based on members who contribute. One memeber puts in 10 mil, get 5 fleets and no more, two people and so on. It will keep issues of trading conflicts from happening.

[Whitcomb The Feared]

i don't think that increasing the number of ships is the best idea, at the moment for a newborn the only way to surpass someone is by having more ships than someone else. but if we don't put a cap or we don't put a slow down on the increase of ships, some veterans will soon be impossible to reach. Overall veterans not only have more ships, they also have much better and maximized ships.

So if now we render easier the way for veterans to make more fleets and always the most powerful, the newborns will just be induced to play the trader way cause on plundering they have no chance. and they won't risk to increase the danger to skirmish and gaining less than 10k if in return they los much more being plundered.

But if we don't break this vicious circle, it risks to be worse for the game. Yeah we need more strategies like the fort or the possibility to put many fleets against many fleets. Like newborns can beat 1 ship of the line by merging for an attack 100 sloops (example). Of course those newborns will need a great coordination and activity to do that, but on 1 VS 1 it remains very very difficult to beat someone veteran. so the safer and easier way is just trading.

I agree on trade, it is really easy to trade. you see where you make profit and your fleets go automatically, and even if they skirmish you, you make profit. So we need maybe something to increase activity somewhere else, like more interactions. As a newborn i can't increase interactions cause i don't have enough money to make more powerful ships, and even having them i often don't have the right bonus (i have a war ship with cargo bonus ...) and don't have the money to replace it. Overall i don't even have enough money to get plundered too much or i risk to lose a ship.
So i see newborns almost pushed toward the trade life until they make money to have sotl maximized ... but again, to plunder weaker people, not to plunder more powerful players ! and i think we need a mechanic were nobody is "untouchable" and there is more competition in that way.

what i have seen in other games is not putting a limit, but falling from the top and needing to escalate again to reach again the top.
Like you arrive at X fleets and your fleets feel too confident or they suddenly make one danger more .. and they can get plundered. Or they make an accident and you lose a ship. Or you create some missions like beating the first in this period ... or something to decrease the number of ships. When someone loses ships, he will be induced in recreating them to reach again the top ranking. While other people will be induced in play more to surpass him. If we don't put a limit, who enters now or later will see the top player not with 100, 500 or 1000 ships, but now he has 17'000 ships ! it's huge ! if a newborn sees that from 17k he fallst to 15 then to 10k. and the second becomes first, then also the second loses a rank ... and the ranking is changed, maybe it will bring more activity.

[The Lamb]

Maybe I should clarify, I meant we need more trade fleets on the seas. Maybe having trade officers separate with a lower investment, and military officers with a higher costs. This means that there is a larger pool for which to draw from, and noobs wouldn't have to worry so much about getting hit early on.

Pirates and skirmishers need the extra fleets for their revenues so the more trade fleets the better I say, however i still think its too easy to cast a few voodoo and manage to affect 200, 500, 1000 ships all at once.

PLUS a pirate port is a must