Hideout HQ - Special Buildings - Gold Resource

[Captain dungeness]

I haven't said much about hideouts so far but now that we have detailed numbers I have a few things to talk about. Goldsmith first:

Here's a hypothetical situation:
It looks like it will take at least 40 days to build a level 10 Goldsmith and cost ~610M gold. At that point I can create 4800 bars per day (costing 10.8M total). With the current model for port buy prices I would sell those bars throughout the day and as I sell the port's buy price will drop dramatically.
1) Assuming 3 ports started with ZERO stock I could fill up 3 ports to the point where I make no profit because the port is buying at the same cost it takes to create.
2) Assuming all ports start with 800 stock, I could fill up 5 ports all by myself every day and quickly run out of ports willing to buy.
So My question: How fast do gold bars get used up from the market?

I think a level 10 Goldsmith is attainable by a few players within a few months... if the 4800 bars I make daily take a week to be consumed we could easily end up in a situation where only maybe 3 of the highest level goldsmiths ever turn on their forges because all the ports are buying at 2400 gold each and only a level 9+ goldsmith can make bars for less than that. Small goldsmiths would never produce because they only buy bars from the huge goldsmiths- in this way only the largest goldsmiths are ever profitable. Maybe this is your intention, I don't know, I'm just theorizing...

I propose: #1
Of course players will buy gold bars and consume them to build their hideouts but I believe more consumption may be needed to keep ports from filling up. The speed at which bars are used by players will probably be less than 1/4 the speed they can be produced (total guess: base on trade income to fund buildings). I think all ports should automatically consume 0.25% of their current gold bar stock every 10 minutes. This means that after one day if all ports start with 700 stock (buy price of 2720 gold) they would end the day with 482 stock (buy price of 2807 gold). Two level 10 Goldsmith players could easily produce enough bars to trade to all ports and replenish the auto-consumed bars. Even with players buying bars to make buildings, two big Goldsmiths could rule the market easily.


WITH this proposed automatic consumption of bars a level 10 Goldsmith would make about 2.5M gold selling bars to ports at about 2750 gold after producing bars at 2250 gold each. That means spending 10.8M gold each day to make 2.5M profit.
WITHOUT this proposed automatic consumption, the 21 ports would fill up and no Goldsmith will produce bars except to be use for building his own hideout. I believe gold bars will not be used by players fast enough to keep goldsmiths producing.

[EDIT: My equation is wrong here, disregard it]
I propose: #2
I think the current equation for a port's buy price per bar is too low. This is why: a port with 3550 stock of gold bars will buy more bars for 1500 gold. This means even a Level 20 Goldsmith will not sell his bars because it would be a loss: he'd rather not even make bars for that price. This means ports will NEVER hold more than 3550 bars and probably not more than 2300. A level 10 Goldsmith could produce enough to top off half of Avonmora because it would only take about 500 bars before he reaches the upper limit where it's cost-prohibitive. If you make the slope of the price equation shallower then people will have a better time finding bars to buy and you would see one large player can't dominate the market so easily.
How about the equation be: Price=-0.25*stock+3000 (instead of Price=-0.4*stock+3000). Now the hard limit is about 5600 bars and probably not more than 3700 bars in each port.

If you don't make this change to the equation I don't think people will ever buy from ports because they would only get a good price on ~200 bars at a time before the price shoots up too high... so they will run out of bars to buy and be forced to only produce because ports can't hold enough bars to supply the needs. If you need 20,000 bars for your next upgrade it's bad news because you would likely need to buy 25% of all the gold bars for sale in all of Avonmora. If you stick with the currently proposed equation then 20,000 bars is an incredible 40% of all bars likely to be for sale in Avonmora ports! There needs to be a big enough "storage" of bars for sale so that players can buy/sell at reasonable volumes. Otherwise a buyer needs to wait for a seller to sell 200 crates and then they buy 200 crates so the seller can sell 200 more crates. It's waaay better if the buyer can buy 2,000 crates at a time rather than 10x transactions at 200 crates each. That's just tedious and frustrating.


Of course there are a ton of assumptions going on here. I may be totally wrong. I guess we'll see.

-Captain D

[Cdv]

I like how the Goldsmith feature is structured. The worker requirement is interesting.

In the cost resource for goldsmiths, I see that the gold coins cost has been lowered greatly, while Gold bar cost has been raised very high. The way I see it, for a player who who uses his self-produced gold bars without buying from or selling to the market, will take a very long time to build a Goldsmith.

Gold bars needed for lvl 2 mansion and lvl 2 goldsmith = 575 + 14949 = 15524
Level 1 goldsmith production rate at 20 bars /hour or 480 bars a day.
Time taken to produce the required number of bars = 15524/480 = ~32.3 days

Adding the time for actual construction of the buildings, it works out to about 36 days to build a level 2 goldsmith from scratch! I don't know if this was intended by the developers but I think it is a bit excessive.

[Most Lee Harmless]

As you will probably also be building the marina and mansion itself up, there will be the days while they are being built to produce more gold bars... will take some thinking about how best to schedule it all... not just gold bars, but coin and building materials (as well as food for the workers) will need to be stockpiled in the warehouse for each build ; the warehouse itself will need to be high-level too, just to hold it all before its used. Of course, you could buy-in gold bars from other ports as well, but it wont be an easy start, but that's how it should be, its not an entry-level feature, its something you will need to work and plan towards over many months as you develop : we got a bit of a disadvantage of getting it all started from a relatively clean slate : a later player will gather bars over time towards their builds.

[Shaydo]

Cap D, your numbers look a little off. For proposition 2 a Goldsmith at lvl 20 would be able to sell up to 35000 bars before it no longer became profitable to sell them. This would mean if all ports were stocked to that value we would be looking at around 735k bars in Avonmora at any one time.

Looking over the numbers a lvl 1-2 Goldsmith would lose money selling bars. A lvl 3 Goldsmith could turn a small profit up to 1k bars and then this steadily goes up as the Goldsmith level increases, this appears ok at lvl 20 you are looking at being able to stock 35k bars/port while turning a profit which would take 1 lvl 20 smith 4 days to do, or near 2 months for 1 to stock all ports, as lvl 20's will be rare i dont think this will present much of a problem but it may mean as Cap D suggested that smaller Goldsmiths never fire up the forge because it may just be cheaper to buy than produce, if this turns out to be the case then higher levels may be able to continuously sell Gold due to the consumption rates of other players, very shrewd, but time will tell if this works, if not we may need a mechanic that uses the gold automatically to allow players to sell gold bars.

A lvl 10 Goldsmith can sell up to 15000 bars at profit which would take 3 days to produce, so if we say that it takes 3 x lvl10 goldsmiths to stock 1 port in a day, then it would take the 3 either 21 days to stock Avonmora or 63 lvl10 goldsmith to do it in 1 day. As there will probably be less than 10 lvl10 goldsmiths (Jack may have a better idea on this figure) we could say it would take 1 week to stock the all the ports.

The concern for me is the food required, at lvl 10 you would need 48k food a day (2k per hour) which would cost 240k, lvl 20 would require 96k food a day (4k per hour) at a cost of 480k, if using fleets to just keep food stocked you would need 8 or 16 fleets respectively to keep food stocked. I think this will encourage/force players to build the hideout in a food port so as to mitigate the fleets required.

CDV also makes an interesting point with the Gold bars required just to get to lvl 2, i do think 15k bars maybe a bit high as you would need to stock pile for a month to reach that level and a further 20 days to get to lvl 3, were you could begin to turn a small profit (up to 1k bars stock per port). For the next level you are looking around 13 days if you stockpile everything still, this would mean for the first 2+ months players would not be selling any gold bars and after that they would get drip fed into the market, the later level requirements seem logical though as from lvl 10-20 you are looking 10-20 days of personal production to level up (i approve of this). If you made it 5k for lvl 2 and 10k for lvl 3 then your looking about 10 days per level for the bars alone, this would mean after 20/25 days gold may start dripping into the market slowly, lvl 4 is 15 days and lvl 5 is 10 days, after that you stay around 10 days per level for a while and slowly creep up to 20 days from around lvl 9 onwards at around 1 day per level, i think this would be more reasonable. Unless the point is to make getting the first few levels take a very long time due to the increase from then being substantially faster (Mansion lvl not factored in). Maybe lower the initial Bar cost and increase the gold cost dramatically for the first few levels? this way it is still a pricey venture but not so long on time?

The prices for the buildings in general are also a lot lower than i was expecting with most all costing less than 10mill at lvl 20, i perhaps would have expected all the prices to be possibly double what they are with the exception of the Bank and Goldsmith as i would have expected these to be substantially higher than they are currently.

Other than the food to feed the workers and the initial gold bar cost for the smith I am happy with everything else mentioned.

Sorry this is so long.

[Shaydo]

Also will we get a date or any warning for the Go Live of this feature or will it hit stealthy one night?

[Captain Jack]

Excellent replies. Please read my long reply if you can - it is very important for us.

1)Cpt D, as Shaydo said, your numbers on market sales are a bit off. Current formula milestones are 25k and 50k. We can easily however adjust the formula in accordance to consumption/goldsmiths. We can even agree to review the formula every x amount of days. Optimally, we would like the formula to allow more flexibility - as you recommend. Still, I believe that as initial value it is fine also considering that 50k gold bars equals to about 75millions to 150millions.

2)Automatic consumption must be avoided at all costs. At least for the beginning. The biggest problem with automatic consumption is that it can lead to tremendous profits. The ability to make 5m ONLY from production sounds me very powerful and especially in the beginning, when there will be few goldsmiths, it could happen. Players will need to buy gold bars because the cost of Goldsmith is something that cannot be afforded by everyone. Gold Bars requirement will be expanded after all to things beyond the hideout. Also check point 7)

3)It is intended to make the Goldsmith early levels a waste. It has been proposed by the players after all.

4)CDV, you are right about Lvl 2 cost of Goldsmith. We will update the gold cost for this. We will maintain the overall gold bars cost to about the same levels but make them less at first levels. Do you think more buildings should be like this? Let us know.

5)Regarding food requirement, Shaydo, you are right. We have thought of this as well. An interesting work around is to make it consume 1 crate of Food, 0.5 crates of Tobacco and 0.5 crates of Rum. Do you (all) find the solution acceptable?

We believe that if you want better production speed, it should be harder than moving a lever and picking how much to pay. This way also uses existing mechanics and it helps to blend the feature with existing ones.

Also, making tobacco,rum and food needed for something, is within our planning. Wood,Iron,Tools and cotton are already needed in this way. This is needed for all resources as it is within our plans to make production of all these goods player-based.

6)Aren't Goldsmith and Bank already too expensive? We wanted the Bank to be more expensive than the Goldsmith but we eventually decided that since a bank will require time to be profitable (in contrary with the Goldsmith) we should make it cheaper than the Goldsmith. Take in mind that Mansion and Workshop buildings, are entry buildings for the Hideout and provide no direct real bonuses to the gameplay. Therefore we thought to make them cheap. Private Marina, is the first building of interest but still,its cost is greater than what 20 SoLs would cost. Surely, the bonus provided is considerate but it is not that great and it is mostly going to be used as a Vacation Mode option. So, taking this in mind, it is already expensive. There will be more buildings for the hideout, which we can make more expensive.

7)We increased the cost of buildings in gold bars as we want the players to need gold bars - to make players buy them from the market. Most gold bars will be used for trade and many will choose to keep them at warehouses waiting for the opportune moment to sell. Making them important to use as well, will make trading more realistic.

We will not allow automatic sale in the beginning (we will review later again). Players will be able to only sell manually from their warehouses.

There will be more things that will require goldbars once they start to become more common. Ship of the Lines for example and perhaps one extra ship type we might add (or else Large Merchantman - something we will discuss with you all first).

8)You will get info once it is live but not before this. What is left, is to finalize these values and then we might need some feedback on Banks (if anything arises). There is few development time left and then we can go live. If I wanted to be optimistic, I would say 1 week more.

9)You will be able to use gold bars from your goldsmith right away. Nothing special on this. The reasons we want to prevent selling gold bars at the hideout port is that we want to make fleets mandatory for goldsmith profit.

Buying gold bars, we are open to your opinion. Perhaps it is not as necessary as hideouts due to other required resources that cannot be bought, need fleets. Therefore fleets being mandatory for the construction of hideout is not affected by a ban on buying from same market. Maybe we will avoid this eventually.

Do note, that ultimately, hideouts will be moved out of ports. The only reason we are using ports for now, is because it needs a new map in order to allow this - it is in our plans to create a new map after all so at some time this will happen too.


If I forgot anything, please remind
We value your responses greatly. It is really hard to make the correct choices in numbers - the more opinions the merrier.

Thank you

[Captain dungeness]

Cap D, your numbers look a little off. For proposition 2 a Goldsmith at lvl 20 would be able to sell up to 35000 bars before it no longer became profitable to sell them. This would mean if all ports were stocked to that value we would be looking at around 735k bars in Avonmora at any one time.

Well I'm slightly embarrassed. Good catch Shaydo. In that case my concerns are unfounded.

An interesting work around is to make it consume 1 crate of Food, 0.5 crates of Tobacco and 0.5 crates of Rum. Do you (all) find the solution acceptable?

I like this idea. It requires fleets whereas only food would allow players to pick food ports and almost ignore this requirement.

[Most Lee Harmless]

I also like the food/rum/tobacco requirement for workers 'wages' .

Regarding 'home port' purchases of gold bars, I don't see that as an issue : after all, they had to be shipped in by the seller anyway.

Otherwise, other query would be : if you move your hideout when the new locations become available, what happens to your existing warehouse? If it stays behind, then you would need to build another in the new location, if it moves with the hide-out, you would need to replace it in its former port. As, on first glance, you'll need a lvl 200 or so to holds sufficient stocks for building upgrades and food for workers, it could be an issue down the road.

[Cdv]

1)...... We can even agree to review the formula every x amount of days. ......

I'd like this. Maybe, a first review after a week and subsequently, after a month or 3 months etc.

4)CDV, you are right about Lvl 2 cost of Goldsmith. We will update the gold cost for this. We will maintain the overall gold bars cost to about the same levels but make them less at first levels. Do you think more buildings should be like this? Let us know.

I think the gold bar cost for the Mansion, Workshop and Private Marina look alright. For the bank, it depends on whether the feature will be implemented soon after the Hideout and Goldsmith or later. I imagine that gold bars will start trickling into the market 3~4 months after launch. If banks are introduced before then, we will see bankers twiddling their thumbs in their level 1 bank(unless they produce their own gold?). So, imho, if banks are to be implemented soon, their gold bar cost in initial levels should be lower and then, raise at a sharper rate(like with goldsmiths.)If the banks come when gold bar trade is quite established, the current rate is fine. I also find the cost in gold coins for both Goldsmith and Banks to be rather low.

5)....... An interesting work around is to make it consume 1 crate of Food, 0.5 crates of Tobacco and 0.5 crates of Rum. Do you (all) find the solution acceptable? .....

I DO NOT agree with this. Supplying food to workers already serves the purpose using fleets and making upgrading harder than simply moving a lever. Tobacco and Rum are used in Workshops and perhaps in future buildings. If the purpose is to prevent all goldmiths from congregating in food ports, I find that not an issue and this is why: If I remember correctly, a player's Hideout will initially be in his base port, the port that he started in when joining the game. So, some goldsmiths may be 'lucky' and based in a food port but 85% of players will not (based on averages). Players will be able to move to a different port but moving will be expensive and paid in credits and this is not available in version 1.0. (right?) Not all goldsmiths will be willing to pay to move their Hideouts just to feed their workers. And in future versions, Hideouts will be moved out of ports and food will have to be transported in fleets so, this does not become an issue.

9)....Buying gold bars, we are open to your opinion. Perhaps it is not as necessary as hideouts due to other required resources that cannot be bought, need fleets. Therefore fleets being mandatory for the construction of hideout is not affected by a ban on buying from same market. Maybe we will avoid this eventually.

I agree. We should be able to buy from all ports.

[Shaydo]

1. I agree with CDV here, after 1 week and maybe again after 2/3 weeks when buildings have a few levels, then go to say every 3 months for a time?

2. Have no automatic consumption to begin and then 6 months or so revisit and consider if it is needed, this would give time to gauge if they are being bought from the market or not.

3. Good point well made, keep it non profitable for the first 2 levels, then minor profit for a few levels.

4. Again agreed Mansion, Marina and Workshop appear fine. If goldsmith first 2/3 levels are lowered then this would be fine. I think banks are ok, it means goldsmith production has to be level 2/3 to think about a bank and then you can either level your Smith or level your Bank?

5. I like the idea of using Food, Tobacco and Rum to pay your workers it gives a tad more realism also it gives a continued use for the resources that would otherwise only be used for construction, you may still get a congregation in food ports due to highest used resource but i think a greatly reduced one as people may spread over Tobacco and Rum ports as well. When production moves to be player based then Tobacco and Rum would hardly get manufactured due to the non use for them, this way they become essential. The only forseeable down side is that the cost for producing gold goes up a bit because Rum & Tobacco are more expensive.

6. No, the time taken to build each level and amass the gold gives ample time to save more than enough to cover to gold coin construction costs. Also there will likely only be a handful of people that try to get the hideout buildings to a high level because most probably won't see the need. To this end the cost could be increased by say 50% for Mansion, Marine and Workshop?

7. However 6 being said, forcing players to use more in gold bars than they do in gold coin does force them to purchase off the market if they don't have a Goldsmith the same level as the seller does, this would encourage continuous sales of gold bars which is something we want to stop the market getting locked at max.

8. Make it about 2 weeks, got a week off then .

9. I agree completely, the funny side effect will be the ports with low gold stock are were the smiths are producing it if they all end up in the same port that is . If you ship them out and back in could you sell them, wondering if it's 2 warehouses or 1?

Buying from same market seems ok to me, as you cannot sell at that market and it maybe the best buy price, not allowing sales in same market is the main issue surrounding this i think. Buying means someone shipped them there already and you got lucky you built there.

It was mentioned before that we would be able to build resources in hideouts, i'm guessing this will come about when the map update happens? Will there be any restrictions or requirements on this? Referencing point 5, if the pay is just food then you could make a farm and feed your workers locally removing the need for fleets to ship in food, if it is 3 resources as suggested then fleets are still required.