Bank/Private marina Balance Tweaks

[Captain Jack]

Here are a few changes we have noted down, some thanks to player ideas, in order to balance Hideout. We feel that this is a good time to issue an extensive list of tweaks for Hideout as we now have enough data at hand. More tweaks may happen in the future.

ALL PROPOSED TWEAKS ARE NOT FINAL. THEY ARE OPEN TO DISCUSSION. YOUR FEEDBACK WILL PLAY A ROLE IN FINAL DECISIONS.

Private Marina:
-Slightly reduce Gold Bars requirements.
-Reduce turns needed to dock as levels increase, By 1 turn per level. (40 turns needed at level 1, 20 turns needed at level 20 - which means that with 400 turns someone will be able to fill it, if completely empty).

Bank:

Only tweaks will be proposed here, based on these:
-We need to ensure that Banks are not used as Treasure Hives from the Bank Owners
-Bank levels play a greater role than now.

Immediate tweaks:
1.Limit the amount a banker can deposit to TOTAL AMOUNT DEPOSITED + (BANK LEVEL * 5M) + 15M.
-This means that a level 1 Bank will be able to store 20M if empty. If it gives out a Loan of 20M, it will be able to store 40M till the loan recipient withdraws this amount.

Future tweaks
1.Client Base Restrictions based on level
-At levels 1 to 5, a bank can serve (any action) only players of its Nation. Therefore it will only appear to them in all screens of selection.
-At levels 6 or above a bank will be able to serve all players, regardless of nation.
[b]2.Advanced settings become available with Bank Levels
Examples:
At level 10, all transactions cost 2 turns instead of 3.
At level 20, all transactions cost 1 turn.
At level 5, a Bank gets the ability to mass message clients.
At level 10, a Bank gets the ability to receive payments from the National Treasury (both clients and owner)

[Most Lee Harmless]

Marina : I agree with these changes : currently finding the marina a bit too progressively expensive for bars just to gain one extra slot in it : a side-bonus of cheaper docking would help justify those costs.


Banks : I feel the limit is too low : If I make one, or several, loans totalling more than this limit, together with existing client deposits, I cannot deposit any funds of my own until all deposits fall below the limit (as currently happens) : seems a bit daft that a bank owner would have to then bury their own gold, or deposit it at other banks cos they cant use their own one. Then what's the point of it? I'm all for altruism in action, but not for paying 10+mil coin plus 10+k bars per level to guard other folks assets and not my own.

EDIT : Actually, looking at the calculation proposed, You would pay 10mil plus 10k bars to add a bank level so as to be able to keep an extra 5mil of your own gold in your own bank.

Strongly oppose this limiting banks to own nations until they reach a certain level : for those in smaller nations, it makes it a pointless investment : 60mil plus 60k gold bars until they can act outside their own citizen base?

I'd prefer a system in which the bank makes the choice to be:

'Private' :

The owner only can use, in which case the anti gold hiving measures would come into play, but a bit more generous than proposed

'Domestic' :

It serves only its own citizens.

'International' :

It serves all-comers.

The other advance settings seem okay, but the mass message to customers should not be restricted by level : how else can a small bank grow its base to the point a B5 can be reached?

[Captain Jack]

For limit, there is another scenario in order to create space for your money; give loans.

Here is the case:

Level 1 Bank has 20 accounts with 100M deposited.
The bank balance is 100M
Owner can deposit 20M more.

The owner gives out a loan of 20M, which the debtor uses.
Now the bank has 20 accounts with 100M deposited but the Bank Balance is 80M.
So the owner can deposit 40M more.

The formula proposed should not create any issues to a working bank but YES, you may need to use other banks or bury your gold if you have too much. Or, you could issue more loans.

[Most Lee Harmless]

But the level one bank can only draw deposits from its own citizens : the account limit is 2.5mil : so, you would need 40 full accounts to get to that 100mil limit : it can only loan to its own citizens : So far, I have had one serious (as opposed to chancers trying it on) loan application for that sort of amount (20mil), and that's not from a citizen, so I couldn't lend it anyway (under the proposals). That would hold the same until I have invested some 40mil and 40+k bars (120mil) to get to level5, where-upon I could make such loans : 160mil investment to be able to loan to non-citizens : I'm gonna need an awful lot of deposits made and held and an awful lot of loans taken out and repaid to cover that and thus make the bank worthwhile for my own needs.

Alternative :

Close the bank. Make bars instead and bury them in ports across the map.

[Captain Jack]

Interesting point this one. The nation restrictions are too early to decide anyway. We will want to see at least 3 banks reaching level 10 before deciding these. This is why I put them under future tweaking, it is not going to happen anytime soon.

So let's disregard them in combitnation for the time being. If you do this, how do you rate the Deposit limit for bankers, after the details I gave above?

[Most Lee Harmless]

Again : massive investment for little return for the owner : I'd spend 40mil or so (in coin and bar) to raise a level to gain... 5mil extra space for my own funds? There is no sense in that at all. I'd need to attract a level of deposits about 3 times my current levels to make that work at level2, 6 times at level 3, 9 times at level 4. But I have no means to do that, apart from just being there.

Which makes it all so speculative. What changes might happen in the future, for good or ill? It's a lot to gamble on the end result being worthwhile, For me, it's just too much coin to risk on such uncertainty : I already feel I have wasted what I have spent so far. So, right now, I don't feel like involving myself any further in it. That's how I rate the proposed changes.

[Kart]

From what I am reading I too am discouraged about the banks. I opened a bank to provide the savings location and loans primarily for Bermuda residents. I had no intention of ever having a massive bank. I only wanted to have a bank large enough to provide for the limited needs of a small nation. What I am seeing in deposits and withdrawals is great instability. This indicates to me any loans should be and would have to be out of bank assets and not out of customer deposits. What I am seeing in the possible new plans leads me to believe I would not be able to deposit enough in my own bank for me to cover loans in the future out of bank assets. In order to have the capability of loaning with bank assets the cost would be prohibitive to the benefits acquired. If I am wrong, please break it down where someone as simple as me can understand it. Otherwise when these changes are enforced I will be forced to close down and consider my investment a loss. I think I may have to be very careful about engaging in any other new ideas the developers come up with until they are time tested and proven in the game.

[Loki]

I like the proposals for the marina but the restrictions proposed for bankers not to be able to offer services beyond their own nation is a bad move, Small nations like ours would suffer and have a limited service as we would not be able to bank our money, thus creating an imbalance and unfairly penalising small nations players and bankers

[TheLoveTiger]

I had a large reply to the changes but it was pretty much what every party had mentioned.... The only thing I want to know is if I get a refund for my current investments that you are going to lower.

[Captain Jack]

First,
Let us put the citizens idea aside. From what I see, no one so far likes it and I am unsure if it will work.

Second, the deposit limit tweak is for bank owners only.
How exactly this affects your bank or clients or your investment?
No one stops you from keeping enough money to serve your clients.

Here is a better example:
We have a level 1 Bank that has just started. The owner can store 20M in it.
Players start depositing amounts in the bank. The balance reaches 70M and 50M are client accounts.
The Banker gives a loan of 20M to a player. Once the loan is accepted, the accounts are now 70M and the Bank Balance 70M.
The loan recipient withdraws 20M. Now the Bank Balace is down to 50M and 50M are the client accounts.
The banker can now deposit 20M more, for a Balance of 70M.
In this example, the banker paid the loan using his pocket - not the gold deposited.
The loan repayments, will slowly or fast bring the Bank Balance to more than 90M.
Here, a WORKING BANK, has just managed to overcome the limit by more than 20M, with a single loan.

Let me now give the full formulas to help you:
BANK OWNER MAX DEPOSIT = ( TOTAL AMOUNT IN DEPOSITS ) - BANK BALANCE +( BANK LEVEL * 5M ) + 15M

Let me know if you understand this and be specific about your problems.

Furthermore, there are many more updates coming for banks. All bankers can see most of them in notes, in the Bank.

Kart,
Regarding the problem of unstable deposit, with Bank settings, Bankers will be able to set daily withdrawal limits. A client will be then unable to withdraw more or he will be forced to pay a % fee to do so (banker decides).

Regarding general complaints, I believe that they are unjustified and unfair. I am not convinced you are realizing the proposals. I have some answers but I do not with to take this further.
-You have been warned since development that there will be changes for balancing.
-Even if you were not warned, this is only normal for every new feature. For example, BANKS started cheaper and got more expensive a week later. I have not heard any complaints from those that already built it with 1M.
-Development cannot take in mind your personal investment needs. Surely,we want the playerbase happy but we also want a balanced game. Giving you one 2B treasury that no one can touch, where you can deposit and withdraw money is CERTAINLY something that unbalances the game.
-Since the design phase, it was made clear that this is going to be an EXPENSIVE feature because we want few banks.
-Once banks became 14, a number I realized as already big, I wrote one more warning ( viewtopic.php?p=15112#p15112 )
-The banks number is still okay, if the banks are operational. We do not want them as treasure hives.


This is a discussion topic. I am bringing issues to the table so we can see if this is to make the game better or not. The proposals are not our decisions. We are interested in hearing your explanation and your perspective. Then, once we come to a solution, either mutual or not, then we will have the suggestion. There you can vote or downvote it and we will take it in mind. If the suggestion is approved, we will give you a period to prepare for the new change before we implement it. This is how it works.